revenge of bishojo

[mrsulu]

I wrote a long post here, but let me sum up.

World War II was a time of extreme sexual liberty. I don't know which WWII vets you're talking to, but go hit the books---it was a crazy time with STD rates that would knock your socks off.

If you actually turn back your history books further, Western sexual mores swing back and forth---it's not a monotonic function going only looser. The 1890s were called "The Gay 90s" because, boy, things were wild. There was then a period of sexual repression that busted loose again in the 1920s, pulled back during the Great Depression, then went crazy again in the 40s, then very conservative in the 50s. There was more freedom again in the 60s and 70s, more repression during the 80s, and now we're back to libertine again. I imagine it'll swing back again in the next decade.

In the U.S., middle school sexual contact rates, even oral sex rates, are still pretty low---there is no easily-documented nationwide epidemic of tween oral sex. There is a lot more oral sex in high school than there was two decades ago, but (surprisingly) slightly less actual intercourse. I imagine that sex goes through fashions just as clothes do.

Feminism is a complicated subject. I suspect DaFool's using the word "feminism" to describe something other than the basic human-rights tenents of 20th century male/female equality, such as giving women the right to vote, own property, and freely study business and science. Most scholars refer to the 90s and 2000s (at least in the U.S.) as a time of post-feminism. No one would mistake Christina Aguilera, for example, for an old-school feminist or sufferagette.

Since time began, everyone has looked back on their halcyon memories of a previous time and declared today's youth is out of control. Miyamoto Musashi's "A Book of 5 Rings" was an aging samurai in 1584 trying to tell everyone how everyone used to be more honorable and decent and the kids these days suck. Japan didn't even survive the century, clearly.

I agree that international popular culture is corrosive. Science and capitalism are corrosive, too, but the benefits of all three are recognizeable. Public sexuality, like the internal combustion engine, is a double-edged sword and must be used wisely, but I'd rather we all be able to talk about it sanely.

I also recommend lifelong marriage to anyone who finds a good partner. (However, you may all not marry my wife since I already have her and have no intention of ever giving her up.

[lordcloudx]

since it's kinda related to what mrsulu has stated, I'm gonna post one of my old poems here.

Despair
By: Cloud^

A city of pretense,
clinging on to falsity
built on false hope and empty promises.
filled with malice and uncertainty.

Everyone is callous,
pretending to live their lives normally,
using selfishness as a mask,
to hide their own insecurities.

Some look to the past,
believing it was different,
but these are merely selfish portrayals
of their own pseudo-enlightened realities.

And I am no different,
living in this small city,
unable to escape,
my tears flow silently.

[Enerccio]

The media has quite a bit to do situation including attitudes. Part of the reason I started this thread is to explore the double standard often petruated about pedophiles. If an adult male has sexual relations with a young girl (as portrayed in many h-games), the man is portayed as a predator and the scum of the earth, the girl got victimized, and situation is tragic. If an adult female has sexual relations with a young boy, the woman is at worse portayed as an easy slut, the boy got lucky, and the siutation is amusing if not humorous.

well this is proof of feminist

[mokenju1]

The media has quite a bit to do situation including attitudes. Part of the reason I started this thread is to explore the double standard often petruated about pedophiles. If an adult male has sexual relations with a young girl (as portrayed in many h-games), the man is portayed as a predator and the scum of the earth, the girl got victimized, and situation is tragic. If an adult female has sexual relations with a young boy, the woman is at worse portayed as an easy slut, the boy got lucky, and the siutation is amusing if not humorous.

well this is proof of feminist

This is only proof that a man can "easily" rape a girl, but biologically it's difficult that a woman can rape a boy (Please, what is she going to do? Tie him and give him Viagra?). Would anyone find humorous that a man rapes a boy?

I'm sorry but all that issue about "consensual rape", and "she really liked it" makes me sick. And next time you are playing your gorgeus hentai game which portrays the rape of a 13-14 years old girl/boy ( and it doesn't matter that the game says she/he is 18, because you know it's only a lie to cover the legal issues) please try to think for a while that she is your sister or your daughter. Ups... but I forgot that some people also enjoys the idea of doing it with their own little sister.

[lordcloudx]

This is only proof that a man can "easily" rape a girl, but biologically it's difficult that a woman can rape a boy (Please, what is she going to do? Tie him and give him Viagra?). Would anyone find humorous that a man rapes a boy?

Not exactly, if you see it from the point of view of law in the revised penal code as amended by the Anti-Rape Law (philippine laws only check your own state for verification)

Ok... kinda unappetizing stuff ahead. You have been warned

A woman or any person for that matter, can commit rape of the 2nd kind by inserting any object into the anal orifice of the person against his/her will.

the first kind is sexual intercourse against a woman's will. (ejaculation is not neccesary, mere penetration is already rape)

both kinds must be accomplished with the use of force, violence, intimidation or moral ascendancy to constitute rape.

and yeah, rape is evil but there's a sort of guilty pleasure that I get from watching an anime girl getting raped.

[papillon]

If an adult female has sexual relations with a young boy, the woman is at worse portayed as an easy slut, the boy got lucky, and the siutation is amusing if not humorous.

Well, in *hentai* this may be so, but it isn't the case in real life. In real life, the woman is portrayed as deranged, and still goes to jail.

Now yes, she gets a much easier time of it in jail than the man who has sex with young girls. People will stare at her and mutter that she's a freak, but they won't try to KILL her, which is a constant risk with male pedophiles.

There've been several cases in the news lately regarding female teachers having sex with students, usually 14-15yos. In at least some of the cases the teachers are married. The portrayal is not 'how funny' but 'there is something wrong with this woman'.

[mokenju1]

This is only proof that a man can "easily" rape a girl, but biologically it's difficult that a woman can rape a boy (Please, what is she going to do? Tie him and give him Viagra?). Would anyone find humorous that a man rapes a boy?

Not exactly, if you see it from the point of view of law in the revised penal code as amended by the Anti-Rape Law (philippine laws only check your own state for verification)

Ok... kinda unappetizing stuff ahead. You have been warned

A woman or any person for that matter, can commit rape of the 2nd kind by inserting any object into the anal orifice of the person against his/her will.

I get your point but it's more probable that a man could enjoy that 2nd kind of rape that a woman. I'm not saying that there is not a woman who could do and enjoy it, but is simply that women's fantasies hardly go in that direction. It would be interesting to know how many women are actually in jail for raping some one (not including the case of teachers and students when the student claims that he was not forced to do anything). Maybe its only an issue related with testosterone, who knows...

And it's not like I'm against the guilty pleasures that anyone could have, that's none of my business after all, but I at least expect that men that are playing that kind of games don't think "Hey, I don't understand why people thinks that raping a child is a bad thing...".

[Enerccio]

Tie him and give him Viagra

Well this is good idea What he will do, if yes?!
And what about woman to girl?

And it's not like I'm against the guilty pleasures that anyone could have, that's none of my business after all, but I at least expect that men that are playing that kind of games don't think "Hey, I don't understand why people thinks that raping a child is a bad thing...".

OMG Ist only a game, stop acting like its a video or something...
Its the same like shooting games, why there are som any players of CS and only few (menthal stupid) are really shooting to other people?!

[Blue Lemma]

And next time you are playing your gorgeus hentai game which portrays the rape of a 13-14 years old girl/boy ( and it doesn't matter that the game says she/he is 18, because you know it's only a lie to cover the legal issues) please try to think for a while that she is your sister or your daughter. Ups... but I forgot that some people also enjoys the idea of doing it with their own little sister.

That's kind of like saying "next time you're playing Metal Gear Solid, imagine that person you're killing is your brother or your son." But no one says that because people know it's just a game. As for people who enjoy the idea of doing it with their little sister, well... I'd say it'd be tons better to get that fantasy out in a game rather than real life. Just like most fantasies that exist in video games.

[mokenju1]

And next time you are playing your gorgeus hentai game which portrays the rape of a 13-14 years old girl/boy ( and it doesn't matter that the game says she/he is 18, because you know it's only a lie to cover the legal issues) please try to think for a while that she is your sister or your daughter. Ups... but I forgot that some people also enjoys the idea of doing it with their own little sister.

That's kind of like saying "next time you're playing Metal Gear Solid, imagine that person you're killing is your brother or your son." But no one says that because people know it's just a game. As for people who enjoy the idea of doing it with their little sister, well... I'd say it'd be tons better to get that fantasy out in a game rather than real life. Just like most fantasies that exist in video games.

It's not true that no one says that, because in fact there are many people that would like to forbid any kind of violence in video games. Not like I am one of them, but there are people who thinks like that and they are not a few. They tried to forbid "Bully" in Spain, because parents thought the videogame could encorage young people to bully their classemates (and if they would have actually played the game they would have discovered that in fact the main character helps some fellow students to "fight" against the real bullies. But the way he fights against them is also not acceptable, so they would probably don't like it still.)

I've played Commandos: Behind the Enemy lines. That means that now I believe I'm a member of a real commando and I'm going to try to kill some nazis to spent my free time? Probably not. I would play a game where I have to rape and murder women and children?. Not, because I couldn't really enjoy playing that game. Because I can't relate to that kind of fantasy. For me playing that kind of game would be disturbing and would be disgusting. But that doesn't mean that other person can't play the same game without being a psicokiller. It's ok to have fantasies, but killing is not raping and it's far more easy to cross the line between your fantasy and the reality and try to rape than try to kill.

And if the fact of playing a game could make that the pedophiles and rapists of this world could not cross the line and satisfy themselves only with the fiction, don't you think that the psiquiatrics at the jails would use H-games which portrays rape like a good therapy?

[papillon]

it's far more easy to cross the line between your fantasy and the reality and try to rape than try to kill.

Sorry to nitpick, but - on what grounds are you making that statement? Because you think murder is worse so you just assume that it would be easier to rape? Because you personally can imagine yourself raping someone more easily than you can imagine yourself killing someone?

Looking up statistics, the first ones that come to hand do show that there are more rapes than murders - but there are WAY, WAY more non-sexual violent assaults than there are rapes. Whether these were full attempted murders or just beating people up, I don't know from these figures, but clearly in this set violence is in fact much more common than rape. (Obviously this is just one set of data from one location over one period of time. It doesn't mean this is the way the world is necessarily.)

So if you want to blame the media for anything, blame them for showing that the 'proper' response to being insulted or offended is to punch someone. Quite often characters who take offense and throw a punch suffer no consequences at all in the media.

And if the fact of playing a game could make that the pedophiles and rapists of this world could not cross the line and satisfy themselves only with the fiction, don't you think that the psiquiatrics at the jails would use H-games which portrays rape like a good therapy?

Not necessarily. First off, someone who already HAS 'crossed the line' is not going to be offered a 'reward' of something that's a better substitute. If anyone were prescribing rape games to keep the fantasies in a safe place, it would be psychiatrists talking to people who have these urges and have NOT acted on them, and they would keep such things very confidential. For another, even if playing a rape game meant you would never rape again, it wouldn't follow that all the shrinks at the jails would know this, be able to prove it, and be able to convince the Powers That Be that it's a good idea.

[mokenju1]

Sorry to nitpick, but - on what grounds are you making that statement? Because you think murder is worse so you just assume that it would be easier to rape? Because you personally can imagine yourself raping someone more easily than you can imagine yourself killing someone?

Years and years of watching Law and Order: Special Victims Unit endorse my theory. If you have seen the show, you'll know that a rapist who murders "his" victims usually crosses these lines in order: to stalk, to rape, to kill .

Now seriously, psycologically the urge to kill is very different from the urge to rape. That's the reason a rapist or a pedophile are very difficult to "reintegrate" in society, because they can't control their compulsion. Of course, there are serial killers that also can't stop, but usually they have serial mental problems ,and a person who kills only once can still be "mentally" sane. But I haven't the exact numbers again. Only that crime reiteration statitics of rapists and pedophiles are big, really big. And I don't see how anyone would compare that kind of crime with being robbed or that someone steals the radio at your car. Please , than kind of crime where the other people only wants your money doesn't need any kind of psycological explanaition. They are not insane, they only want your money.

BTW Answering your question yes, I would find easier to kill someone than to rape someone. But I don't know if this fact is more reassuring for you or not .

[quote ="papillon"]
So if you want to blame the media for anything, blame them for showing that the 'proper' response to being insulted or offended is to punch someone. Quite often characters who take offense and throw a punch suffer no consequences at all in the media.

[/quote]

Sorry but, when have I said "We have to blame the media." or "The media and the society had created rapist and pedophiles. Those poor people has no responsabity because they have been too much exposed to violence and sex on tv and they just couldn't help to do it."? I am going to look again at my posts to see if I have send that kind of subliminal message because I have not purposely said that anywhere.

But there's a thing about the media that it's true. If you are a pedophile and feel that everyone around you thinks that your fantasies of f*cking a six years old are depravated, you'll end up fealing isolated. That doesn't mean that you are not going to keep those fantasies and maybe imagine naughty things with the son of one of your neighbours. No one can enter in your mind, after all. But what happens when that pedophile can enter in contact with other pedophiles that thinks that their fantasies are not a bad thing. They talk, they share experiencies or films or photographs or... games. Well, you can bet that he is not going to feel more isolated. He knows that other people are like him. Other people feels excited with children, too. Maybe society still discriminate against him, but that is not so bad when you have people who are like you.

I don't think that is enough reason to "cross the line" for many people, but to be encouraged with people who share the same interests with you, is always a good reason to keep doing the same activity or maybe upgrade your activity. (e.g. If I'm an anorexic and I found a forum in Internet when I can chat with other anorexics like me, it's more easy to keep being an anorexic because I have the encouragement of the community. Or another good example would be the Lemma Soft forums when you are encouraged to make games because people with similar interests are making games, too.)

BTW I was not the one who changed this thread to a discussion between if violence is worse than rape or not ( Although a rape is also a violence act in the first place .)

And if the fact of playing a game could make that the pedophiles and rapists of this world could not cross the line and satisfy themselves only with the fiction, don't you think that the psiquiatrics at the jails would use H-games which portrays rape like a good therapy?

Not necessarily. First off, someone who already HAS 'crossed the line' is not going to be offered a 'reward' of something that's a better substitute. If anyone were prescribing rape games to keep the fantasies in a safe place, it would be psychiatrists talking to people who have these urges and have NOT acted on them, and they would keep such things very confidential. For another, even if playing a rape game meant you would never rape again, it wouldn't follow that all the shrinks at the jails would know this, be able to prove it, and be able to convince the Powers That Be that it's a good idea.

But interestingly enough, the Powers That Be have found psyquiatrists who say that playing an eroge game where sex with underage people is depicted can encourage people to develop their own fantasies. And that is the reason because there is now a Law which forbids it (and that we all know that it's hardly respected in any H-game.)

Wow, what a really long post . But I still need some more lines:

- I don't think media or society can be blamed for the behaviour of each individual.

- I think that individuals can be encouraged by the media and the society to show some behaviours and hide others, because the individual needs to be accepted by his/her environment.

- A game who portrays women as sex objects who only says something along the lines of "Please take care of me" and who actually enjoys being raped although the character is showed crying and blooding for me ,as a woman, is denigrating. For me. PERIOD. Enjoy your guilty pleasures as much as you like, but try to remember now and then than real women are not like that. And if your inner desire is that women were like that, I'm afraid you have born in the wrong time and your wish is not going to come true any time soon.

[lordcloudx]

- A game who portrays women as sex objects who only says something along the lines of "Please take care of me" and who actually enjoys being raped although the character is showed crying and blooding for me ,as a woman, is denigrating. For me. PERIOD. Enjoy your guilty pleasures as much as you like, but try to remember now and then than real women are not like that. And if your inner desire is that women were like that, I'm afraid you have born in the wrong time and your wish is not going to come true any time soon.

Awww... now I feel that I have to respond to that too. It's not rape if someone likes it unless the woman is below the age of 12. So says the new anti-rape law. And yeah, I know real women are not like that, but some of them are too, though they may be the rare exceptions. After all, no single woman can generalize the entirety of womanhood with themselves. That kind of reasoning holds no merit in logic or a formal debate, but who cares? I'm not planning to rape someone anytime soon and I'll still enjoy my pron h4rdc0Re!

Oh yeah, the reason why I blamed the media before is because of the casual attitude towards sex that these teen shows and tv dramas portray in society. Not because, I'd like the legitimate companies who produce/localize hentai to stop.

edit: and one more thing, there's a reason for the extreme sexual acts in hentai anime.

As artwork can capture sexuality straight from the imagination, scenes that are impossible to photograph or film or which are social taboos (i.e. gay sex, bestiality, rape, tentacle sex--you know, the main taboos of most cultures at certain times) find their place in hentai. Additionally, hentai aims for extreme sex acts to push viewers’ comfort zones, leaving the soft pornography for ecchi. Of course, as directors aim for more and more explicit acts, hentai has become more and more fantastical, with acts that most everyday people will never ever experience, such as group sex, bondage, mutilation, violence, water play and bukkake (for the definition of that act, google it yourself if you’re over 18 and ready for such knowledge). Some people see hentai as an artistic criticism of what is socially acceptable sexuality, and what is not; and whether socially acceptable sexuality follows primal sexual urges. In practice, do women really want demons in their bedrooms, and is businessman-underage schoolgirl relations okay? Personally, while I think a few directors and artists have an artistic purpose behind their works, aiming for story and relationships over visual titillation, most companies are in it for the same reason as mainstream pornography: to make money.

copy pasted from here http://www.mania.com/53858.html
yah, so it's commercially dictated. If there's a market for it, someone will make it (rule 34 of economics?)

[Watercolorheart]

Guys, I'd like to point out (from the earlier "can a woman rape a girl" thing) that it's possible, and I read a horrible article a while back about a five year old girl raping her little sister by

inserting objects into the 2 year old's orifices

...

They're seeking counseling for both, but God, that's awful :(. I have a 2 year old little sister so any time I read about this stuff for real it really sickens and angers me.

A lolicon board is one thing because I know most of the art there is fantasy, but in real life .... (shudder)

Also, when I was younger like ... 12 ... and I drew lurid hentai, I used to defend the position that statutory rape laws are unfair. I've since changed my tune as I age, seeing how much mental anguish the one relationship I had at 13 with a 12 year old girl caused me ... No, it doesn't fall under statutory but we were still too young to know any better, and I foolishly became infatuated.

Then she ran away from home and later tried to kill herself. It was like a physical blow to me, and I got very sick during that time from mental stress. As she got older, she filed for this independence thing that lets her move out of home at 16, got pregnant and doesn't know who the father is ...

It's really painful for me because her own mother abandoned her, and her grandparents are the ones raising her. Now, she's gone and done the same thing... she just abandons this kid at her grandparent's house and they call me in desperation: "Please watch him for us. We're in a crisis."

Well, I don't have a bone with situations where it's very consensual and healthy. I'm still with my boyfriend who I also met at 13, and we're quite happy together now :). I also had early experiences then, but I won't vent about them here: we may have been clumsy and tense, but it was hardly unenjoyable.

Writing this has made me sad again, remembering all that junk ... Ugh ... I used to go to the ShoujoAi.com forums when I was younger, and I just found out that the creator died a month ago and the forum is dead. It's like I lost that part of my life ... I've been with that community for at least 6 years.

[papillon]

(mrmph, yeah, the shoujoai thing sucks but I'd rather not talk about it in this thread)

And I don't see how anyone would compare that kind of crime with being robbed or that someone steals the radio at your car.

That's why I wasn't looking at the numbers on robbery (which are also a LOT bigger than rape). I was only looking at serious violent assault.

But what happens when that pedophile can enter in contact with other pedophiles that thinks that their fantasies are not a bad thing. They talk, they share experiencies or films or photographs or... games. Well, you can bet that he is not going to feel more isolated. He knows that other people are like him. Other people feels excited with children, too. Maybe society still discriminate against him, but that is not so bad when you have people who are like you.

This I actually agree with, but not in the way you think.

Are you familiar with Something Awful?

They found a pedophile forum once and quoted all sorts of messages off it to show how creepy these guys were before intentionally and repeatedly crashing their servers.

One of the most disturbing posts was where the pedos were picking on a new member of the forum for only liking lolicon, because these pictures were not a REAL child and couldn't respond to you like a REAL little girl did!

... ew. ew. ew. ew.

So yeah. Allowing these guys to congregate freely does let them validate themselves and convince each other that it's okay to feel the way they do, and encourage each other to do more and worse things.

OTOH there really does seem to be a distinction between lolicon and pedo - forums I've seen that were lolicon friendly were generally quite loudly against anything resembling actual underage sex, and the pedos think loli is stupid.

I suspect anyone who really would be likely to indulge in inappropriate behavior with a child (without having seen an h-game) is not likely to be satisfied by playing an h-game. I don't KNOW that, I just suspect it. In the same way, I suspect that 'normal' people who would never do such a thing but occasionally have strange fantasies in the night that they're ashamed of, might feel better after playing such a game and being able to explore those fantasies in a safe place.

I don't think a game can make a non-broken person broken. Same with all these kids who supposedly ran wild and shot people after playing violent video games. They were SCREWED UP KIDS to begin with. That's why they liked the violent video games! Normal people play those games and do not go out and kill people.

... Anyway, as for personal stance, I see no reason to insist on the 'Everyone is at least 18!' rule with games because it's silly, I see nothing wrong with drawings of characters depicted as 16ish. (I think 16 actually is age of consent here, but I'm not sure.) But I will get squicked by sex scenes with characters who look less than teenage. Sweet little loli girls (clothed) cuddling and kissing? That's cute. Loli sex? EW.