OELVN: State of the Community

[Vatina]

I once read a book that the author had set in her own hometown - and she still got a couple of facts wrong, so it's not that bad (as long as you don't call the Tokyo Tower the city hall or something like that.... which I have actually seen once)

[YuMMz]

I quickly read through this topic so I may have misunderstood the general gist of what is being discussed, but I have a question regarding comments earlier about moving away from epic titles.

Have you ever considered that the creation of an epic game may be the only driving factor for some people? To strive and top the current community standard. While these lofty goals may be unrealistic and result in many failed projects, they may also bring in alot of talented individuals whom would not be here if the community were content to simply make small niche/fetish games. Also if or when these projects fail, these talented individuals I have seen have seemed to provide their services to help others complete their projects.

I think giving up on the lofty goal of an epic game is foolish.

[mikey]

The thing is, it's quite easy to start an epic project, and in the current state of things, it's not impossible to bring in great talent for such a project. There will always be those who will start such projects, and sure there may be those who even finish it one day - surely this will be a great day, something of a proof that we can do it, but the outcome of the discussion (at least from my perspective) was, that this will ultimately not make the community or the VN medium any more popular, at least not significantly. There was also the idea here that this may just not be the right time for VNs to be popular. So I think people here acknowledge that an epic project is possible. For me, it was important to show that all that effort that will be poured into that epic project won't be appreciated appropriately - and so the motivation for making the epic title needs to really be from the maker himself, the will to make an epic game - not to impress or help the community.

[Adorya]

I don't think it was meant that epic should be discarded for short VN, but rather epic need lot of motivation, team/work and experimented coding, even if you are a professional.

It is advised to start with short works before switching on bigger plan.

It remind me when I was younger, I wanted to make a comic with all design style, with comic, manga and such in, but I finally learned that I had to know how to draw a single stone on the ground before starting such project

Also epic is a give or take as mikey just said, you could put all effort in the world and people could just not be interested, it's really a work for self unless you have a big fanbase support...or lot of luck.

[DaFool]

I've been thinking, an experienced builder can pull off artworks and music off-the-shelf from freeware sites and make an impressive visual novel.

It's all about writing and presentation after all.

So what's the point of striving to make everything original to the game? Especially backgrounds and music...they're a pain in the ass to make if you want them good, and they will always play second fiddle to the character art and the writing, which are always forefront in a visual novel.

I mean, why work for 12 hours per piece just to receive comments of
"good choice of music."
"good choice of backgrounds."

The only way around it will be to work even harder and blow people away with works rivaling Makoto Shinkai's BGs or Yoko Kanno's compositions...but I don't see myself doing that anytime soon.

People don't really care too much about originality in fan creation in anime circles anyway.

I just realized to be a good visual novel maker you just need to be good at putting things together, in making the whole more than the sum of its parts. Spending countless hours on each one of those parts may not be a wise decision.

[monele]

I just realized to be a good visual novel maker you just need to be good at putting things together, in making the whole more than the sum of its parts. Spending countless hours on each one of those parts may not be a wise decision.

So.... should directors just pick things from various sources (except what they can and *want* to be original), assemble it, let it be judged by people and then only, if it's really appreciated, consider putting efforts into making it legal?
(this is no sarcastic tone, I'm genuinely wondering)

[mikey]

OMG, I strongly disagree!!

I don't think at all that we should rely on pre-made graphics and assets that weren't made specifically for the project. In fact, while I'm willing to concede that they can give you a jump start, can you really be happy with just pulling down images from the internet and glue them together with a story?

Just look at how much atmosphere even the translated doujin games lose when you see that same graphic again and again. I would so appreciate if the makers would just take a pencil and draw, no matter how much worse it looks than those freely available ones.

In terms of popularity, sure, the better looking game wins, but in terms of reward and motivation, I don't think this can be the way to go in the future. Remember how great it feels to play Drawn To You with all those original drawings. Would that feel so special if it were put together with those notorious Japanese doujin backgrounds and Tsuina?

I really think that just "acquiring" your assets and making a game from them isn't really making a game - it's something I'd see as a challenge, but in the end it's presenting (the elements in a new way), rather than creating something unique.

[DaFool]

Well there's a difference between, say...you have two buildings...

'generic Japanese middle-class house'

versus

'The Magical Boutique'

The latter is iconic and is a trademark of the game, so naturally you want it unique. But I don't think that's the case for the former.

For a more middle-of-the-road example. I remember when playing Elven Relations, having a hand-drawn panoramic BG of the Elven city would have added so much more to the experience instead of the CG + description. But naturally, the writing and characters were paramount, the game was excellent in that regard, so nothing seemed lacking.

I think if anything, this should put more pressure on writers so that they can describe unique places which only their gameworld has. So that it won't be enough for players to just go to the 'dungeon', it has to be their 'Dungeons of the Red Orcs' for example.

[mikey]

I get the point I think - It's similar to car makers these days, the mother company produces equipment that can be shared, and the individual car manufacturers within that group design the car and put in some original features.

That's however also the reason why in the advertisements the cars are different, but actually, they feel quite similar, but even if they didn't - crucially, none of them feels unique.

[DrakeNavarone]

can you really be happy with just pulling down images from the internet and glue them together with a story?

Why not? Sometimes it's not a matter of meeting your needs. Sometimes those images simply speak to an author, their jaw will drop and say "That's my character!", and there's no other way about it. I don't see why the art can be made for a story, but a story can't be made for the art. Maybe you, as the audience, will feel a loss in atmosphere after having seen the same art before, but if it really means that much to the author, why deny that art or criticize him when he uses it?

And as for that Tsuina character set, I kinda hope some more small games will use it, if only because it means something to me. I was going to use that set for my story. In fact, the main heroine became what she was thanks to the impressions I got from the art, it really made her character. So you might see "Generic Character Pack #7", but whenever that face shows up in a game, I'll always say "Oh, nice to see you again, Melissa" because, even for generic art, it means something to me.

[DaFool]

Basically the complaint I have is whenever a gamemaker makes a Japanese School romance and wants original backgrounds for it.

I'm like, 'There's plenty of backgrounds for a school romance already!'

If you're going to spend the effort to make original stuff, it's actually imperative...and perhaps even easier, to make the writing -- i.e setting, premise original all the more.

Another example, if you're going to have a castle in the game, then that castle better demand exactly 7 purple towers, a half-moat, 2 draw-bridges and 3 layers for archers. Otherwise, just hunt for a picture of a European castle online and use it. Please.

Drake brings up an interesting point...but still. You may be touched by the artwork, but that artwork was designed to be a generic character pack. Because if it weren't designed to be generic, then (in our example) Tsuina would have added a witches' hat, a mole, a cute mascot sidekick, or any number of accessories which constrain the role the character can play (take note especially the sci-fi and miko character packs and how rare they are used compared to the more everyday ones.).

[F.I.A]

Reminds me of those Hong Kong series, where sometimes game/anime bgms can be used in those shows. Heck, when you hear a Sailor Moon bgm remix or a Resident Evil bgm, it really raises your eye brow.

While it is a method to use prepared backgrounds, it is never a bad idea to make our own from scratch. Sure, it takes more effort(And further lengthens the time of production), but to me, I feel that my cgs will fit much better in my own backgrounds. Probably, due to my cging method and habit.

Currently, OELVN lacks recognition by those it needs. Most VN players weight OJLVN over than OELVN, that sometimes they develop a stereotype. There is hardly any discussions about OELVN(Compared to OJLVN, where famous titles are debated to death).

I will assume that OELVN will start to be popular when they are amassed. But the problem is... what is the number to be considered "amassed"? 100?



My To-Dos if I am going doujin:
1) Burn the game on a nice cd with pretty cover.
2) Artbook for sale.
3) For the sake of looking professional, add in voice actors.
4) Add in extra stuff such as flash, or some movie clip(!?).
5) Commission work per purchase(Only for those who are artists!)

[mikey]

The basic idea of "help" is fine with me, also the idea that a character, even from a generic set inspires you to make a game around it.

But the more known the resource, the less unique it will feel - no matter what you come up with and no matter how unique your personal story with it, others won't really be able to see it. The Eiffel Tower is very hard to pass for anything else.

While it is a method to use prepared backgrounds, it is never a bad idea to make our own from scratch.

This sums it up, actually. You can't go wrong making your own - while you can mess up using generic ones, unless you carefully construct it in a very personal way like DrakeNavarone mentioned.

[mrsulu]

Mikey says:

The Eiffel Tower is very hard to pass for anything else.

Hold on, here. Are you implying the Tsuina blonde gal in black dress the Eiffel Tower of OELVNs?

Wow. She's monumental.

[DaFool]

Decision to go Ero or not

I just browsed dlsite today, and found an increasing number of English works. Most are translated by the Japanese circles themselves (wow they are aware of their global audience for 2D porn!), some are translated by Curious Factory.

When I last checked, in total there were 2 outside-of-Japan submissions. One was a general Nekomimi image collection (with collaboration with Japanese artists), and another was an adult work by someone who seems like English isn't his native language.

This got me thinking (yet again, yes DaFool thinks too much). But I think mugenjohncel might get interested this time, because it deals with professionalism.

1.) As one gradually becomes a full-fledged doujinshi circle (in our cases, gamemaking circles), should one start off All-Ages, or can one start off as Ero? What are the ramifications?

Do you think it will be better to start off All-Ages, then go Ero?

Or vice-versa (which seems to be the case for many Japanese creators) (I'd also like to mention that many local actresses go the Ero-first route, then when they have built rep they can then 'afford' to star in clean films).

I am thinking of Ero-first, because once you have built enough rep it's easier to just discard one's 'dirty past' rather than having built rep on a 'clean' portfolio then shocking your fans by going ero. It's more likely that the fans you have when you're doing ero works will still stick around, but not the other way around.

Or maybe just go dual All-Ages and Ero (alternating) works...opinions please.

2.) I realize it may be a good idea to make two 'brands' if one is to continue doing both All-Ages and Ero works. But will that be enough of a separation factor, especially if by simple google search your name can be associated with all your creations? I know many Japanese artists work on everything...videogames, figurines, anything ero or not. Will this apply to English-speaking artists who are more constrained by the more puritanical home environments (remember only Japan has porn so out in the open.)?

I'm thinking it may be a good idea two have two brands, but a bad idea to have two versions (adult / non-adult) of the same work. Because a simple google search can point non-adult fans of your work to the adult version, and that could spell trouble. Might as well make a dedicated adult game and a dedicated non-adult one. Game->Anime conversions bypass the rules somewhat because of the change in medium.

Actually these questions may be pretty pointless considering that there ISN'T much of an OEL fandom to begin with...but as time passes and we produce more products...who knows?

3.) Also, maybe it's a good precedent that OELVNs are decidedly non-ero (unlike the 90% ero domination of the Japanese doujinshi scene)...maybe that's good?