Debating Java [split]

[Greeny]

Awwww poppycock.

I really hope this will finally be the death blow to Java. I hate that language.

[Ayutac]

I hate that language.

Got another platform independent language that does care for types? (Unlike all script languages.) This is a honest question, I don't really know any.

[Shiz]

I hate that language.

Got another platform independent language that does care for types? (Unlike all script languages.) This is a honest question, I don't really know any.

Every strongly-typed language ever. No language (with some tiny exceptions) is inherently platform-bound, there are only libraries that make it so.
If you want something similar to Java (although I can not imagine why), C# via Mono is most similar, and I'd argue better.

Python also has type hinting if you have a high fetish for types.

[Ayutac]

Every strongly-typed language ever. No language (with some tiny exceptions) is inherently platform-bound, there are only libraries that make it so.

Inherently. But you you have to differ between platforms after all and Java was so generous I didn't had to care at all (except for one key event bug).

Python also has type hinting if you have a high fetish for types.

It has the usual

Code: Select all

variable = 1
variable = "string"

which is typical for script languages (that more or less defines script language for me). With Java, there couldn't go much wrong, exceptions handle everything and no segmention fault stuff.
And yeah, I wasn't aware .NET tries to be platform independent too. Should work I guess. Anyway, thank you very much!

[Shiz]

Every strongly-typed language ever. No language (with some tiny exceptions) is inherently platform-bound, there are only libraries that make it so.

Inherently. But you you have to differ between platforms after all and Java was so generous I didn't had to care at all (except for one key event bug).

Not if you use the right libraries.

Python also has type hinting if you have a high fetish for types.

It has the usual

Code: Select all

variable = 1
variable = "string"

which is typical for script languages (that more or less defines script language for me).

Dynamic typing defines a script language for you? Ehhhh. Then what is Boo? It doesn't name its types, but changing the type of its variables is an error.

With Java, there couldn't go much wrong, exceptions handle everything and no segmention fault stuff.

The same goes for Python and the like. The last time I saw a segfault on Python was, well, never.

[Ayutac]

The problem with the libraries is that others need them too.

It doesn't name its types

Code: Select all

a = 0L

It kinda does. Boo wouldn't be a script language for me, but I wouldn't like this basically always generic type of variables either.

The segmention fault was related to C and C++ of course, that's why I don't like them that much either, although I use them when I want to run my code fast for any reason (rare occasion).

Had a discussion with one of my computer science profs who is usually holding the beginners lectures where they teach the students the first programming language (Java at the moment). I was very pleased to hear he totally agrees with me in the point that strong typing is a good thing, as programmers make much less mistakes, for example.
Another thing he said was that C# is not that much platform independent since Microsoft has just no interest in that after all. They are not hindering it, but they are not supporting it either. And he said Mono can't realize all that what makes C# great.


In addition I was enlightened was the problem with Java was (my English's not that great), so stand-alone applications are no problem so I can still stick to Java because – well, it works. (Just nobody will ever use my browser applets anymore, fortunately I haven't written any |D)

[Biomass]

I'll parrot what I read on slashdot yesterday, there is nothing wrong with the concept of Java, just the execution. If the JRE wasn't apparently full of security holes and platform inconsistencies there would be far fewer people having this debate.

That said, I personally hate Java because I hate Eclipse. Some day I'll sit down and look up how to code Java without Eclipse.

[DaFool]

Isn't HTML5, the current in thing, using javascript?

[Ayutac]

@ Biomass: would NetBeans make it any better?

@ DaFool: Yeah, so? (Java != JavaScript)

[Biomass]

@ Biomass: would NetBeans make it any better?

I've never tried NetBeans, but maybe? Diehard emacs user here.

[RangerDanger]

@ Biomass: would NetBeans make it any better?

I've never tried NetBeans, but maybe? Diehard emacs user here.

Netbeans is actually quite a nice IDE. I use it quite frequently, when I am on a Windows machine. It has fantastic support for C/C++ and has very, very configurable options within that module. I believe as of now it supports: Java, C/C++, Fortran, PHP, HTML/CSS/Javascript, and Groovy.

[Shiz]

The problem with the libraries is that others need them too.

And there are enough cross-platform libraries for languages like C or C++ to knock yourself out with.

It doesn't name its types

Code: Select all

a = 0L

It kinda does. Boo wouldn't be a script language for me, but I wouldn't like this basically always generic type of variables either.

I'm just saying it's moronic to discern a language by its typing system, as a typing system too has many subtleties like static or dynamic typing, weak or strong typing, safe and unsafe typing -- those are all different qualifiers. C# (and C++ in C++11) added an 'auto' keyword for automatic type inference - does that make them scripting languages? In this specific example Boo variables surely have a (fixed) type, it's just implicit and inferred. It still provides all the 'safety' you'd want.

Had a discussion with one of my computer science profs who is usually holding the beginners lectures where they teach the students the first programming language (Java at the moment). I was very pleased to hear he totally agrees with me in the point that strong typing is a good thing, as programmers make much less mistakes, for example.

That is idiotic. Intro language courses are meant for students to get a feel for programming and a hands-on with a language - the less obstacles in the way of that, the better. It's an introductory course, not a learn programming well and fast course - there are undoubtedly more advanced courses on that. There's a reason MIT, among others, switched to Python (or similar) for their intro courses.

Another thing he said was that C# is not that much platform independent since Microsoft has just no interest in that after all. They are not hindering it, but they are not supporting it either. And he said Mono can't realize all that what makes C# great.

Mono had implemented C# 5.0 faster than Microsoft could come up with their .NET SDK update. A lot of cross-platform and device-specific frameworks are being developed right on top of Mono. That said, I'm not a fan of C# either, but I'll grant that it's definitely a lot more advanced than Java.

I'll parrot what I read on slashdot yesterday, there is nothing wrong with the concept of Java, just the execution. If the JRE wasn't apparently full of security holes and platform inconsistencies there would be far fewer people having this debate.

There is enough wrong with the concept of Java.

[Ayutac]

Had a discussion with one of my computer science profs who is usually holding the beginners lectures where they teach the students the first programming language (Java at the moment). I was very pleased to hear he totally agrees with me in the point that strong typing is a good thing, as programmers make much less mistakes, for example.

That is idiotic. Intro language courses are meant for students to get a feel for programming and a hands-on with a language - the less obstacles in the way of that, the better. It's an introductory course, not a learn programming well and fast course - there are undoubtedly more advanced courses on that. There's a reason MIT, among others, switched to Python (or similar) for their intro courses.

I'm not sure if you called my professor's opinion idiotic or the way the introduction course is held. Both is arrogant. Also, the "strong typing = good thing" did not refer to the introduction course, if you thought that.
However, weak typing DOES support making mistakes. And if you get to teach people programming, who never had done anything there, you better start with doing it right and safe instead of fast. Code will be reused and coding errors cost a lot of money. I don't know MIT, maybe they only have very good students who never make mistakes? You must know their reasons, please tell us. Or were you just using an authority fact?
Once learned, it is no problem to go from a strongly typed to a weakly typed language. I imagine the opposite to be more annoying.

And there are enough cross-platform libraries for languages like C or C++ to knock yourself out with.

You see, I do not doubt you can do anything in any language what you can do in Java. Comes from the fact they are all Turing-complete. I'm just saying it is a little bit more difficult. Either you tell your fans to get this and that package, hoping they are safe, to let them compile everything. Or you have the luxury to compile everything from all the important OS (which you own, of course). Or you do some cross-compiling, as Ren'Py seems to do when creating the game. That is always a non-trivial step more that Java does not have.

[RangerDanger]

I'm not sure if you called my professor's opinion idiotic or the way the introduction course is held. Both is arrogant. Also, the "strong typing = good thing" did not refer to the introduction course, if you thought that.
However, weak typing DOES support making mistakes. And if you get to teach people programming, who never had done anything there, you better start with doing it right and safe instead of fast. Code will be reused and coding errors cost a lot of money. I don't know MIT, maybe they only have very good students who never make mistakes? You must know their reasons, please tell us. Or were you just using an authority fact?
Once learned, it is no problem to go from a strongly typed to a weakly typed language. I imagine the opposite to be more annoying.

Python is a great language to use in an intro CS course. It is easy to learn. This allows students to focus on learning about simple algorithms, data structures, and control structures without having to worry about a super rigorous syntax (like C/C++. Java, C#, etc).

It really isn't all that hard to go from one to the other. At least I have not seen it in my experience in my school's CS dept.

You see, I do not doubt you can do anything in any language what you can do in Java. Comes from the fact they are all Turing-complete. I'm just saying it is a little bit more difficult. Either you tell your fans to get this and that package, hoping they are safe, to let them compile everything. Or you have the luxury to compile everything from all the important OS (which you own, of course). Or you do some cross-compiling, as Ren'Py seems to do when creating the game. That is always a non-trivial step more that Java does not have.

Well, including libraries with your executable is rather trivial. No reason for someone to compile the source themselves, unless they want to, of course. I imagine that it is a similar process for Java, though I have never written anything professionally using Java.

[Ayutac]

Yes, you have to worry about less in Python than in Java. So you learn not to worry about things, which is not so good. Algorithms should come after one learned to program, because first you have to get one simple thing into the student's head: The computer does EXACTLY what you tell him to do. That's better done with a type strict language because students will notice their starter mistakes easier. The only advantage of using Python for starters I see is that they have to learn indention right, seeing the weak typing as a disadvantage, because it will come up to programmers, at least in C.
(And the program with the included libraries still only runs on the OS that compiled them.)

I feel kind of misunderstood...