Joystick Support (was Re: Ren'Py 6.15 Pre-Releases)

[SundownKid]

Any idea when we can possibly get customizable screens to remap either keys or joystick inputs? For accessibility reasons, such a thing would be great.

[PyTom]

Any idea when we can possibly get customizable screens to remap either keys or joystick inputs? For accessibility reasons, such a thing would be great.

I don't have plans to do either of these. If anything, I may take out joystick support - I don't think people use it very often.

[SundownKid]

Any idea when we can possibly get customizable screens to remap either keys or joystick inputs? For accessibility reasons, such a thing would be great.

I don't have plans to do either of these. If anything, I may take out joystick support - I don't think people use it very often.

I have several people even in my beta testing group who want to use controllers. I'm sure a lot of my potential audience would as well. I could also use key binding because it's actually pretty necessary, as shown in the requested accessibility features.

Basically, joystick support is actually useful. Even I want to use it.

[Jake]

If anything, I may take out joystick support - I don't think people use it very often.

Out of interest, do you have any data to support this, or is it just supposition? I know I've heard of more people than I'd expect using it.

More to the point, is there actually any benefit to removing it?

[SundownKid]

If anything, I may take out joystick support - I don't think people use it very often.

Out of interest, do you have any data to support this, or is it just supposition? I know I've heard of more people than I'd expect using it.

More to the point, is there actually any benefit to removing it?

He shouldn't remove it, there should be a screen for it. It makes no sense that it's the only thing not customizable, and that there's no similar option for regular keys.

Right now, it just plain doesn't work on my UI.

[PyTom]

I have several people even in my beta testing group who want to use controllers. I'm sure a lot of my potential audience would as well. I could also use key binding because it's actually pretty necessary, as shown in the requested accessibility features.

Right now, Ren'Py games are playable with 5 keys - up, down, left, right, and enter. (Older games used to require the escape key to enter the game menu, but the quick menu has made escape redundant.) Those are all pretty basic keys for computer operation - if you can't type them, you can't use a PC. So I'd expect anyone who needs those keys remapped to already have a tool that does it. Duplicating that functionality inside Ren'Py seems redundant.

This is especially true because there are a lot of redundant keys inside Ren'Py - if you want to remap the dismiss action, which keys should be remapped?

Basically, joystick support is actually useful. Even I want to use it.

My thinking about joysticks is the same way - there are tools that map joystick actions to keypresses, and those tools do a good job at it. I've used one to use Ren'Py with a wiimote, which doesn't look like a joystick to the computer. I'm thinking it's better to point people at those tools than to build complex and rarely-used remapping interfaces into Ren'Py.

I don't think anyone has to give joysticks up, but my current thinking that Ren'Py is the wrong level to have input-mapping functionality at. (In much the same way we lost os-volume-setting functionality.)

This is a bit off-topic for 6.15, as I'm not going to add new features to it.

[SundownKid]

It's just nice for a joystick to actually work natively with Ren'py without worrying about having to start up and configure a separate keybinding program. Most video games don't just point you to something like that and I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for Ren'py.

I don't see where you're getting the "rarely used" from. Any evidence to support that?

[PyTom]

I don't see where you're getting the "rarely used" from. Any evidence to support that?

It's more a lack of data showing people using joysticks with Ren'Py. It's tough to prove a negative, but there's a circumstantial case:

* The last time we had a thread about joystick support, I was the only one who mentioned using it. (Actually, I used the wiimote.)
* When people customize the menus, they often omit the joystick screen. We don't hear people complaining when this happens. Compare this to people who complain if Linux support is omitted, or if rollback is blocked.

Do you have evidence to show that people actually use the gamepads?

[SundownKid]

As I said before, my playtesters wanted to use a joystick, and at least one person here also wanted the joystick customization working. The reason people exclude it from customization is because they don't know how to customize it, not because they don't want it.

I also have a minigame that would work using a joystick too. And if it's an RPG/visual novel hybrid, or puzzle game, that would be even more important.

[PyTom]

The reason people exclude it from customization is because they don't know how to customize it, not because they don't want it.

Sure - but nobody seems to notice when it's missing. That tells me that there aren't many people using the joystick support - and perhaps, that those people still using joysticks are using other tools to map the buttons. Given that joystick customization screens will be hard to write (it will be at least two screens), I don't think that it's worth spending much effort on them.

[Ryue]

I don't know if they ues them (or could use them), but I think a few shooters are out there made with renpy, maybe those need joystick support.

@SundownKid do they want to use joysticks for classical vn's or is it more action oriented the game?
(or is joystick in that case really "controller" like for example a ps3 controller ?)


On another note you mentioned using the wiiremote does that mean that renpy also funcitons on the wii? (or can the wiiremote just be used also with the pc?)
Are there any plans there for consoles?

[jack_norton]

While I agree it's probably not used much, I don't think is worth removing it unless there's a specific reason to do that.
Many games on PC are played with gamepad now, and I prefer to play with it whenever I can, like for example Walking Dead (which is very close to being a VN) I played it on gamepad because is more relaxing. The future of desktop games with the Valve Steambox/big picture might mean that gamepad will become much more common than now, even if we're talking about 2-3 years in future at least

[SundownKid]

A lot of people might play it using a gamepad because you don't have to be leaning over your computer all the time. And I don't think anyone wants to bother with using a third-party program to bind keys.

[Jake]

* When people customize the menus, they often omit the joystick screen. We don't hear people complaining when this happens. Compare this to people who complain if Linux support is omitted, or if rollback is blocked.

I suspect this is more a comment on the demographic of this forum than the wider use of joypads to play VNs.

For what it's worth, I've twice released games in which I forgot to do anything about joypad support because I don't personally use one, and twice received multiple complaints from people that they couldn't use their joypads. Once I omitted any way to get to the joystick config menu, and once I forgot to include a highlight for the currently selected item. The latter is relevant for any non-mouse user, but it was still mostly joypads which were mentioned when people complained.




(I've tried using joy2key before, and it was nothing but a massive hassle. Maybe it's got better, it was years ago, but it's not something I'd expect everyone to bother with.)





As an aside, would it be possible for mods to leave a note in the source thread when a discussion is split off? I was subscribed to the 6.15 Pre-Releases thread and I almost completely missed that this discussion had continued.

[SundownKid]

The thing is, I'm marketing my VN to a more "gamer" audience who uses gamepads a lot, and I've gotten a few complaints about adding joystick support. A dismissive attitude towards joysticks like this is a bit insulting to people who enjoy using them and developers who want to add it in without going through the hassle of sending every player instructions on how to install and configure a keybinding program.