Religion... Yay or nay?

[xavimat]

I agree with Carassaurat in telling apart the real religions and the fantasy stuff (both can be interesting, but in different ways).

I've had studied quite a bit Religion, and Christianity in particular, and, IMO, there is a big confusion between Religion and Superstition. One doesn't need to be a doctor to know the difference between a surgeon and a witch, but, when I see the religion topic in a story or a film, I usually can't find the significant aspects of religion, but only some slightly-related stuff.
For me it's OK to use the myths, and other "fancy" or odd stories (the Bible is full of them), they can be really cool, but I wouldn't use the name of a real religion to refer to the result of my fantasy. I'd simply invent another name.

On the other hand, it is possible to do a religious-related story, where the characters are actually interested in the real religion and how it can influence their lives, or maybe, how they refuse it for some reasons. Possibly, that would result in a completely different genre, but it can be also very interesting.

The key, I think, is what do you want to do, what do you want to tell and how. And, of course, what will be funnier for you to do.

[LVUER]

I don't know about the Evangelion anime (though I've watched it more than 3 times), I still don't understand it and I doubt I ever will. I also very weak at/can't understand symbolism (and sarcasm, so don't do that to me). And I still haven't watched Evangelion 2.0 and 3.0.

Anyway, according to Evangelion manga (not the spin-off one, but the "true" Eva manga):

Angel, or rather Adam and Eva (or Lilith), are aliens. Angels are Adam sons who want to take Lilith back since Adam is destroyed.

So in the end, it doesn't have any real connection with religion.

[SundownKid]

I'm also kind of wondering if part of it is that Evangelion is a Japanese story. It seems that, in general, a story with badly researched Western history or badly applied Western symbolism is more easily received in the West if it came from somewhere else. I at least usually watch shows like Evangelion with that in mind, thinking things like: "This was produced in a culture far removed from mine, so I shouldn't expect it to conform to the conventions I'm used to. But I'll enjoy it as a unique experience of seeing parts of my culture from a different perspective." I think that's one of the reasons anime is so popular in the West, because it's fun to see the "outsider's" interpretations of Western culture.

Honestly, I don't think that's an excuse. It's not like they don't have encyclopedias in Japan with information about western religion and vice-versa. He added the terms on purpose to give it a pseudo-religious slant simply to make it sound more profound. Seeing things in a different perspective is a bit more complex then "these names sound pretty cool, let me use them randomly".

That's not to say that symbolism can't be used loosely. But when everything in the story is named after some biblical thing or another, it's your responsibility to avoid lazy writing. Especially since it has become a trope at this point for anime to use bible terms and symbols for unrelated stuff.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Especially since it has become a trope at this point for anime to use bible terms and symbols for unrelated stuff.

Yeah, I just leave this related link here. The clip here is mocking it, but still....

[Carassaurat]

What did you think of Neon Genesis Evangelion?

I'm entirely unfamiliar with it, I'm afraid, and I wouldn't want to make judgments based on synopses.

Religion is a way of giving meaning to things in life, so it either has to be handled prominently and respectfully (say, Dostoyevsky ) or not be handled at all; otherwise you'll just take names and rituals but not their meaning. The tales LateWhiteRabbit mentions come from scouring the Bible to find appropriate things for what he thinks is cool, not from trying to understand what Christianity is about.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Religion is a way of giving meaning to things in life, so it either has to be handled prominently and respectfully (say, Dostoyevsky ) or not be handled at all; otherwise you'll just take names and rituals but not their meaning. The tales LateWhiteRabbit mentions come from scouring the Bible to find appropriate things for what he thinks is cool, not from trying to understand what Christianity is about.

While true, I was talking about using Christianity the same way we use Greek, Roman, or Egyptian religions. The Old Testament parts of the Bible and those from the Torah come from some of the same historical periods as religions we continuously use in popular media and co-opt for fantasy stories. I was just pointing out Christianity (and Judaism) can be used in much the same way.

[Cyrus]

Religion is a way of giving meaning to things in life, so it either has to be handled prominently and respectfully (say, Dostoyevsky ) or not be handled at all;

This statement made me sad.

I don't think the OP meant to make a dogmatic VN. Honestly, everybody has issues these days, so no matter what you make, it will turn somebody off. Would you want to play a game with religion used in the way you plan to use it? Just go with that answer.

[Tempus]

I'd like to see serious examinations of religion in games more often. I can't really think of any games besides Xenogears and FFX that went beyond just using religion as a faction or label (though I haven't really played that many games). I want to see the topic dug into without fear of offending people, examining various aspects such as faith (and the acquisition / loss of it), dogma, prayer / meditation, ritual, obedience and how all this relates to real people and how they feel about it. Having people of various religious / theistic / philosophical beliefs coming into conflict and seeing how they resolve the contradictions with others and with themselves is good too, particularly differences in how a single religion is practiced / interpreted. Oh, and throw in some psychology too; in groups / out groups, conformity, cognitive biases, etc. Man, I'm getting excited just typing this.

Despite that, I disagree that religion needs to be given serious treatment or none at all. The sign of immaturity is not being able to handle religion being treated flippantly. What orients and gives meaning to one person's life will sometimes, at best, be interesting mythology ripe for plundering to another. I like seeing it used both ways.

[Taleweaver]

I'd like to see serious examinations of religion in games more often. I can't really think of any games besides Xenogears and FFX that went beyond just using religion as a faction or label (though I haven't really played that many games).

Well... you might want to check out my attempt at making a game about religion, man and how each changes the other.

[Sapphi]

The sign of immaturity is not being able to handle religion being treated flippantly.

Hm... is this really a sign of immaturity though, or is it just basic human nature to get upset when the most important things in our lives are made light of? I know some people who aren't very religious so they don't get upset when people treat their religion in a flippant way, but they have other triggers based on the things they DO value highly. I think we just see so many "immature" religious people because religion is the most important part of many people's lives, something that gives a purpose and a meaning to everything else.

That said, as a religious person who spends a lot of time on the internet, I've learned that I don't think I can expect people to show respect for beliefs they flat-out disagree with. Why would we expect anyone, in any camp, to show respect for a system they honestly believe is wrong? I'm trying to do what's right according to my system, but they are also trying to do the right thing according to theirs... and those systems will inevitably clash. In that event, do I really expect they will refrain from denouncing my position out of politeness? Of course not. And they shouldn't expect me to refrain from denouncing systems that I disagree with for politeness' sake, when the tables are flipped.

So on that note... I think the most important thing, in these kinds of situations, is to keep dialogue between sides open, honest, and uncensored... and to remember that we are attacking positions, not individuals.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

That said, as a religious person who spends a lot of time on the internet, I've learned that I don't think I can expect people to show respect for beliefs they flat-out disagree with. Why would we expect anyone, in any camp, to show respect for a system they honestly believe is wrong? I'm trying to do what's right according to my system, but they are also trying to do the right thing according to theirs... and those systems will inevitably clash. In that event, do I really expect they will refrain from denouncing my position out of politeness? Of course not. And they shouldn't expect me to refrain from denouncing systems that I disagree with for politeness' sake, when the tables are flipped.

That's a good point. Though I don't view using the mythology of a religion for stories as attacking it. As anyone that read about my religious upbringing in another thread will know, I've studied and been exposed to lot of religions, and I've found an abiding interesting in examining their inner workings and stories. Just as retelling common stories can help us discover their meanings and themes, so too can breaking down religious mythos to reuse them do the same.

Using religion in popular stories, games, or media act as a kind of theology for the lay person, allowing them to see a different perspective on elements they may not have examined critically before. It's been said that humor is truth and pain combined into one. So pointing out some painful truths in religion can prove very humorous to a lot of people, even those same people that believe in that religion. For instance, I find the story of Elisha summoning bears to maim children both disturbing (why would God allow that?) and morbidly hilarious (God sicced hungry bears on annoying kids).

[Tempus]

Well... you might want to check out my attempt at making a game about religion, man and how each changes the other.

The tab has been opened So many tabs, so little time.

Hm... is this really a sign of immaturity though, or is it just basic human nature to get upset when the most important things in our lives are made light of?

It's basic human nature to want to indulge in a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to let those base desires dictate behaviour (not that you were suggesting that). I will say that "flippant" was a poor word choice, however. What I meant was being unable to handle religion not being accorded respect / reverence, rather than it being parodied or mocked. Nonetheless, maturity is about being able to handle jokes. I agree it cuts both ways; I certainly don't expect anyone to restrain their opinions in front of me or value my ideas.

So on that note... I think the most important thing, in these kinds of situations, is to keep dialogue between sides open, honest, and uncensored... and to remember that we are attacking positions, not individuals.

I agree. The worst thing, to me, is making a subject (or an aspect of it) taboo to discuss because it might offend someone. What's needed is tolerance, not silence.

[Taleweaver]

So pointing out some painful truths in religion can prove very humorous to a lot of people, even those same people that believe in that religion. For instance, I find the story of Elisha summoning bears to maim children both disturbing (why would God allow that?) and morbidly hilarious (God sicced hungry bears on annoying kids).

The entire Old Testament is full of these strangenesses. The TV show "West Wing" pointed out a few from Leviticus very eloquently:

Also, there's the story of the massacre at Shechem (Genesis 34) where a tribe wants to make peace with the Israelites, but a few of them are fuming because their sister has been raped. The tribe offers to force her rapist to marry her (yeah, this was considered punishment back then), but the Israelites say that no, she cannot marry someone who's not Jewish. So the entire tribe offers to convert and get circumcised. The Israelites agree, the tribe gets circumcised, and while they're all still in pain from the procedure and unable to fight, the raped woman's brothers go out and slaughter the entire tribe. True, they are scolded afterwards for doing that, but they still say that they did the right thing, and there is no punishment for them.

[Carassaurat]

"Respectful" doesn't mean you have to agree. It doesn't even have to mean being tolerant of something. It's not criticism that I have issue with — I criticised my own tendency towards Catholic guilt in It's All Your Fault — it's the use of religion to 'spice up' a story, turning something meaningful into something banal. Discussion over meaning is fine, but no thought can come forth from depriving something of meaning. If that's immature, then call me Little Baby Cassie and hand me a pacifier.

[Shoko]

I don't agree that you necessarily need to be making a profound statement about religion if you're using religious elements. For example, most people can agree as a mythology the Bible is filled with amazing stories that can be applied to many situations in every day life that have nothing to do with religion. Especially with people who don't take religion seriously; they'll see it as a story and perhaps nothing more. And I'm fine with that.