A game with a message...?

[monele]

But now the most important thing... the ship, the crew, the enviroment, the future and even this entire fictitious Universe have but ONE purpose: to serve as plot devices for you to tell your story, and get your messege across. You have to keep ya priorities straight. The ship, the enviroment, the universe - all exist and can be freely changed to enable you to say the things you want to say. For example if ya wanna critizise the Vietnam war, you let Kirk stumble upon a Planet, which has such a war going on (like was done in countless TOS episodes).

But if there is nothing you want to convey to the viewer, than there is no need for a story, no need for characters, no need for ships, no need for planets - no need for the universe.

So the first thing you have to do is to think of what it is that you want your story to convey to the audiance. If you have not done that, your project will undaubtably become a failure.

This was snatched from the Star Trek thread. I've seen this advice numerous times and... somehow, I want to agree... but does a piece of entertainment always needs such a thing? A message...

Just to give an example : the Azumanga Daioh anime/manga. Does it have a message to tell? Or is it just about showing cute everyday life? Now it depends on your tastes but while it might not make a lasting impression, it's still pretty good.
Is there, maybe, a hidden message here too? Or maybe the message ends up being a "feeling the author wants you to have"?

The thing is, I have so many projects on hold where the story is a big part of why I'm stuck that I wonder... Is the message really needed? Or does it just help tremendously? ^^;

[DaFool]

A message will definitely help redeem your work if it fails at entertainment. But if it entertains, the message won't really be necessary.

I'm more concerned with pacing to get something across. Most Japanese visual novels are of the SLG variety (Simulated Life Game), where the pace is almost exactly like real-life (i.e. very very slow). So most of the time it will take ages to get to the core plot, if there is one at all. So not to worry... being freeware doujinshi gamemakers, most of our works carry an efficient cinematic pacing.

[Der Tor]

well... I said that because Lee_Hitsugaya apperantly wants to use Ren'Py to create his own StarTrek Episode(s). And the point of StarTrek has allways been to use certain anaologies to get certain moral messeges across. Of course you also have a lot of things like romance, suspense, character devopement etc. But in StarTrek the moral messege has allways been primary. Of course some people don't realize that. They watch StarTrek and all they see is cool space-battles, they read Guilivers Travels and all they see is cool ship-fights, they read "1984" and all they see is a sciencefiction with cool "Telescreens" etc.

That's true.... but that's NOT the point. You can certainly call 1984 a Sciencefiction, but Goerge Orwell certainly didn't write it to tell us about the technological advances in the future.

Of course if you do a normal Visual Novel with an Anime theme, it's totaly fine to have romance or suspense or action as your main motivation. But in StarTrek you can't not have a moral messege, otherwise it's not StarTrek.

[rocket]

A message will definitely help redeem your work if it fails at entertainment.

I disagree.

If you fail as entertainment then a 'message' is just an annoyance. I'd rather get a lecture straight up, than a lecture disguised in bad entertainment.

Remember kids, broad sweeping moral generalizations ALWAYS annoy viewers. (^_-)

Of course, that's the kind of 'message' where at the end of the episode you have everybody sit around and say "Gosh durn it, being mean to new kids / exploiting the poor / global thermonuclear war / etc. sure is bad! Thankfully we had this very special episode that enlightened all our viewers!" I can definitely do without that kind of message.

On the other hand if you don't have a "message" in the sense of something that you need to share and express - something that you understand well enough use to make judgments about what to include and what not include in your work - if you don't have that I think it's very hard to create a work of art. Once you're past the exploratory stage you need to really know what it's "about" and what it "means" to you. I think that applies whether it's some epic drama 'about' the corruptibility of the human soul (Chinatown) or a light hearted meditation on the innocent joys and dramas of highschool life (Azumanga). If you don't know what it's 'about' and care about 'it' then you won't really be able to answer the question "Why wouldn't giant space robots make this 10x more awesome?" ^_-

[Recca Phoenix]

This was snatched from the Star Trek thread. I've seen this advice numerous times and... somehow, I want to agree... but does a piece of entertainment always needs such a thing? A message...

Just to give an example : the Azumanga Daioh anime/manga. Does it have a message to tell? Or is it just about showing cute everyday life? Now it depends on your tastes but while it might not make a lasting impression, it's still pretty good.
Is there, maybe, a hidden message here too? Or maybe the message ends up being a "feeling the author wants you to have"

Sometimes the worst thing you can do is try to pound a message into your viewer/reader/player's head. Reveal by subtle means, metaphor, symbolism, allegory, allusion if you have to have a message. Or not-so-subtle means if it works for you.
Even if a message is not intended, there will be one. A result of the author's society, likes, dislikes, whatever. Yes, even Azumanga can be picked apart and analyzed.

[Der Tor]

if it is so bad to have moral messeges, why are stories like StarTrek, Guilivers Travels, "1984", Hamlet, Othelo, Romeo and Juliet, Schindler's List, Macbeth etc. so popular? I mean you can't deny that they all have an extremely strong and dominant moral messege, and you can't deny that they are popular (you propably can't even deny that those are good stories).

[F.I.A]

@ monele: Well, Azumanga might just teach that going to school is fun, and that it is good to have friends, be it a goofy osakan or a neko-koneko girl? So no more truancy?

Seriously speaking, I think most story does teach us something. In a story where a war is ongoing, we can see how it destroys life, and how one should treasure life more.

Well, if anything, I think we can agree with that most vns go with the "Love conquers all" message.

[Counter Arts]

Here are my thoughts.

The messages you give are actually the rules you make your story abide by.

If you make your story based on your experiences then any number of messages can be created from them. Why? Life has a lot of rules.

[Showsni]

To quote Oscar Wilde...

"I am afraid you don't quite see the moral of the story," remarked the Linnet.

"The what?" screamed the Water-rat.

"The moral."

"Do you mean to say that the story has a moral?"

"Certainly," said the Linnet.

"Well, really," said the Water-rat, in a very angry manner, "I think you should have told me that before you began. If you had done so, I certainly would not have listened to you; in fact, I should have said 'Pooh,' like the critic. However, I can say it now"; so he shouted out "Pooh" at the top of his voice, gave a whisk with his tail, and went back into his hole.

"And how do you like the Water-rat?" asked the Duck, who came paddling up some minutes afterwards. "He has a great many good points, but for my own part I have a mother's feelings, and I can never look at a confirmed bachelor without the tears coming into my eyes."

"I am rather afraid that I have annoyed him," answered the Linnet. "The fact is, that I told him a story with a moral."

"Ah! that is always a very dangerous thing to do," said the Duck.

And I quite agree with her.

Really, it depends on the situation. Sometimes if a story is getting too "preachy" then it can rub you up the wrong way; but sometimes a moral is good thing to have. You can certainly have an entertaining story without a moral, though.

[magi]

There is a reason that most educational game sucks...

[Blue Lemma]

I think the reason a lot of educational games suck and the reason some moral-game/stories aren't good are similar: the creators put the wrong priorities on their content.

Bad educational game: Developers put educational lessons over fun
Bad moral game: Developers put moral lessons over fun/good story

That's my opinion, anyway.

[Lee_Hitsugaya]

OK, i read this and I just gotta get meh hands dirty...

I think a lesson is almost as close to a necessity as images are in a VN. Even in "Elven Relations" there is a lesson to be learned. It takes 1 person a matter of days to start to create tolerance, but it takes years for others to follow. This is illustrated in the game when you see the reaction of the villagers to the Elf and visa-versa.

[lordcloudx]

Let me just say that there's a difference between putting a moral lesson and putting some kind of message/messages in your story. The message may just be something that the author wants to convey to the audience in a form beyond words, while a moral lesson can always be summarized in one or two sentences. (aesop's fables etc.)

But anyway, with a little imagination, any story is capable of having a message. It's just that the creator doesn't always feel the need to spell this out for everyone.

The way I see it, most oelvn stories are either story-based (and this type definitely needs a core message or "theme" otherwise, it becomes nothing more than a meaningless sequence of events) or character-driven (here, there might still be a message, but the main focus is on character development and getting the reader to empathize with the characters)

[monele]

character-driven (here, there might still be a message, but the main focus is on character development and getting the reader to empathize with the characters)

I guess I'm more of this type then ^^;. So... to take the first enounced rule of "the world is built to get your message across" and turn it around for this new goal would give : "the world is built to develop the characters" ?

[mikey]

Hmmm, maybe it's also a matter of interpretation - just what IS a message and when does for instance a story where one friend helps another become a "message" - I think the determining factor is whether the author wants it to stand out so that he puts it into the foreground - otherwise you know, you can find a message in anything if you want.

These days it perhaps even a part of marketing - looking for what could be a message of your shooter game and then trying to convince people to consider that and make them think the game is somehow deep.

So, well... it depends. You can make a game about friendship overcoming obstacles, but it doesn't mean it's a "message". Sometimes you want to tell a story or create an emotion without the added value of a general message, but more often than not it's simply in the way you present the game that determines this or sometimes your players will find their own messages in the story you created.