Selling out (theoretical discussion only)

[Auro-Cyanide]

I don't think throwing money at the problem will solve it, so your best bet is to find someone who /really/ wants to make a yuri game and help that specific person out. Preferably if they have the experience or skills to see it through. Generally speaking I think if people wanted to make yuri games they would be, and money isn't the issue. It's more a lack of general precedent that can show the genre's potential for a wider audience. So if you can find someone who has a story that will lead in that direction then I think that would be a good place to start?

[DaFool]

I would love to help out in art, programming, or music (in that order). Just don't let me write it... the story will become unrealistic, cliche, and sexist.
If it's 18+ yuri I would be even more motivated. I would be willing to contribute for free, once I overcome my current creative rut.

I think if you hold a writing contest, the submissions should have the potential to expand and become a full game. While using off-shelf assets worked somewhat before, I really think each story should have custom character designs -- can be simple at first, then made more elaborate if the story shows more potential.

[Lesleigh63]

Shame I don't like yuri.

You could go with a script contest (set the word limit and perhaps have it follow just one path plus have them supply a synopsis of the full game), with the winner/s given the chance to finish the script in full with you developing it from there and the writer getting credit and payment(?) when the game comes out. That way you won't lose out or waste your time if the writer bails before finishing the final script.

[shwippie]

Your first idea for a contest sounds really appealing. It would provide an incentive for people who might make a yuri game in any case but are debating whether to make that or something else that seems higher priority. I had the same issue as others where there seemed to be dislike or no interest for GxG. So seeing some interest in the form of a contest or something else would be motivating. Not that what the majority wants is the main concern when making a game- it just might sway someone towards GxG if they were already indecisive or if gender didn't matter to the game either way. And a game jam might convince some people to try GxG even if they didn't plan on it, because it'd be the only game jam going on at the time, presumably.

Are you talking about only 18+? I think it'd bring the most interest if it was "anything goes" in terms of whether it's mature/not or whether the target audience is girls or guys. Although you'd have every right to limit it to what you prefer if you were hosting in the first place.

[papillon]

There's a good bit of interest in yuri in the wider audience, from what I can tell - for whatever reason it's the traditional VN fanbase that's the least interested, both on LSF and in Japan. Dunno why.

If I were running a contest it would be strictly non-H to avoid complications - in terms of what I actually want, explicit or not doesn't matter much to me. Given that I am a girl I don't tend to think my tastes in yuri are male-oriented but I sometimes get accused of pandering anyway

[MelodyKnighton]

I think including GxG options in what would have been a GxB game is becoming fairly common now, or doing two versions of a game, one GxB and one GxG. So, I definitely think it's only a matter of time before you start seeing more, the problem isn't so much the quantity, it's the quality. It's easy to find a game with lesbian/bi-sexual/gender queer characters in it but I'm hard pressed to find ones that treat them like any other character as opposed to a fetish. I'm trying to do it right in my own game, but I of course would like to see more people doing it as well.

If you're really interested in helping the community produce more Yuri games of quality, why not start a grant? You can accept pitches that include story summaries, art samples and maybe even short demo's and give them grant money to help fund their project. Of course, just like grants you should have a contract and stipulations on when money is received and what it is spent on to ensure success and that they won't run off with it.

Or of course you can do the same thing but become an investor (if the game is commercial). You can give them some money up front to work on it and be paid back through royalties.

[Asceai]

I think including GxG options in what would have been a GxB game is becoming fairly common now, or doing two versions of a game, one GxB and one GxG. So, I definitely think it's only a matter of time before you start seeing more, the problem isn't so much the quantity, it's the quality. It's easy to find a game with lesbian/bi-sexual/gender queer characters in it but I'm hard pressed to find ones that treat them like any other character as opposed to a fetish.

Agreed.
The sort of GxG that ends up getting bolted onto a GxB game is exactly _not_ what I'm interested in seeing - and I'm not talking about 'yuri aimed at girls', I'm talking about 'yuri halfheartedly thrown in to broaden the potential demographic / add diversity'.

My ideal GxG game is not something that would have been a GxB or a BxG* if the player chose a different path.

*I know this is a little harder to picture than with GxB, but a bishoujo game that just casually throws in a yuri scene is guilty of this. Bonus points if both of the characters involved happen to be heroines (all girls are bisexual, etc. etc.) In terms of actual routes, there's things like Katahane and Subarashiki Hibi that are BxG games but contain substantial GxG story arcs.

EDIT: I should clarify, I don't mind a GxG route getting thrown into a GxB / BxG game. That's fine. In fact, it's awesome. I'm just saying, there's a lot of that already and to me it doesn't count =P

[Carrogath]

Man, I am so glad we are having this discussion; the number of responses alone is evidence that there's interest in the genre. :') From the responses this thread has been getting, it seems like people don't just want more yuri games, they want more high-quality yuri games, ones that are primarily about lesbian romance and aren't fetishistic/pandering to a male audience. A high-quality game would certainly give the genre a greater appeal--once someone sees that it's been done well, they're going to be less likely to dismiss it.

It'd be nice if one of the high-profile EVN developers just... you know... made one (FWIW I think Christine Love is working on one already), but apparently yuri games aren't financially viable, or something, or else I'm assuming they would have already.

What sort of yuri game are people looking for, though? Are they looking for high school romance? Are they looking for romance between adults? A game in an historical/sci-fi/fantasy setting? Do they want to address homosexuality as a larger social issue or do they not want it to be a problem at all? There are so many factors and things to think about; I could pitch about a million ideas for potential scripts but I have no idea what people are actually interested in seeing. Maybe a survey or something would help you figure out what kind of yuri game people would actually want to play.

[Angie]

What sort of yuri game are people looking for, though? Are they looking for high school romance? Are they looking for romance between adults? A game in an historical/sci-fi/fantasy setting? Do they want to address homosexuality as a larger social issue or do they not want it to be a problem at all? There are so many factors and things to think about; I could pitch about a million ideas for potential scripts but I have no idea what people are actually interested in seeing. Maybe a survey or something would help you figure out what kind of yuri game people would actually want to play.

I believe people want all the same yuri stories as they want GxB stories - which is, probably everything you mentioned. Although, I, myself, really would love to see a game which would show... hardships of such relationship. Because, honestly - everytime I talk with people about such things, not only games, but the whole homosexual topic... Well, more than 50% of people are really homophobic.

We should show that problem, and high-school background would be great to show bullying. Romance between adults - here are so many possibilities. Life of a woman who turns down men all the time, as she's not into them - and how annoyed she is with them, yet too scared to try and find a woman with whom she could be happy.
I think no matter what background at all, with a nice written plot and characterzation, any yuri game would be loved by players.

[Greeny]

Actually I hypothesize* a lot of lesbians would welcome games where the story isn't about the homosexuality. I don't believe gay people define their relationships by it being gay rather than it being about the other person. Or in the very least, given the chance to by society. Straight people get so many media where they just get to enjoy a romance about the romance without having to be reminded of problems, homosexuals really don't have that luxury. You don't want to be defined by what makes you stand out.

*I have no experience with homosexuality, neither personal nor in my direct environment. Going by observations.

Somehow, I also don't think the VN medium, with its current image and market, is really all that suitable for stories with heavy-handed social messages.

[Angie]

Well, Greeny - I do have a bits of experience and from what I know, sometimes it gets tiring to just see in movies/books/games good endings for only hetero couples.
With such moments, sometimes you feel nice and 'fluffy' and sometimes, not to mention all shipping experiences. I believe, as much as hetero people enjoys that, homosexual people would like to enjoy their fluffly moments as well.

[Asceai]

I think it can work, providing the homophobic characters are properly fleshed-out characters, not straw-men and, like all good antagonists, absolutely get their come-uppance. I don't need them to see the light, I just need protagonist and heroine to visit them with the wrath of hell, leave no trace, salt the earth etc.* - could work quite well if the protagonist is a little bit anti-hero-ish.

On the other hand, I definitely agree with Greeny re: heavy-handed social messages. It can be about any topic - I remember the kind of richly-deserved disgust Applique Sister's "Otomimi Infinity" got when it was released, for using kemonomimi characters as a racial group facing discrimination in society. It's incredibly easy to be offensive, even/especially when you mean well. Probably best just not to do it.

*I'm not saying kill them. Death is too good for homophobes anyway =P

[papillon]

It'd be nice if one of the high-profile EVN developers just... you know... made one (FWIW I think Christine Love is working on one already), but apparently yuri games aren't financially viable, or something, or else I'm assuming they would have already.

My current project in development is technically GxG but the romance isn't exactly the main focus and (at least at the moment) it's not quite an anime-style game, so it's all sorts of weird.

Almost all of my games have at least one yuri option as it is. WW's already made several games with yuri-only versions and I'm pretty sure they're selling or he wouldn't keep doing it. The evidence is NOT that nobody wants to buy this stuff.

My problem is time and other commitments. I have a whole complex story-focused yuri game concept sitting and waiting for me to get around to it, but considering my dev time and that everyone's banging on me to do the next Magical Diary, it ain't gonna be soon.

We should show that problem, and high-school background would be great to show bullying.

I'm definitely not looking for a game with a strong focus on how 'hard' it is to be LGBT. I don't need the lesson, and in most cases I'm playing the game because I want to have fun and kiss cute girls! I don't mind it being an element in the setting or a partial feature of one path but it's something to be very careful with, as it can turn into either "ha ha, you're not allowed to be happy! SUCKER!" (making the reader feel cheated) or incredibly lazy villain-writing. A lot of fanfiction features the Evil Man who is evil because he is a man and will launch into rambling diatribes about 'ungodly heathens', try to beat the saintly protagonists with a belt, and then try to rape them, and it's just cringe-inducing.

I don't think I'm alone in this, considering the reaction to moacube's comments on tumblr. There is no shortage of gayngst out there. Being able to just enjoy the romance is much less common.

[Mad Harlequin]

Actually I hypothesize* a lot of lesbians would welcome games where the story isn't about the homosexuality.

This can actually apply to any group (women, ethnic/religious minority, sexual orientation and preference, etc.)

That said, there's a definite place for discussions about identity struggles, but I agree---I like seeing characters defined as people rather than just "the token minority with problems."

[Angie]

We should show that problem, and high-school background would be great to show bullying.

I'm definitely not looking for a game with a strong focus on how 'hard' it is to be LGBT. I don't need the lesson, and in most cases I'm playing the game because I want to have fun and kiss cute girls! I don't mind it being an element in the setting or a partial feature of one path but it's something to be very careful with, as it can turn into either "ha ha, you're not allowed to be happy! SUCKER!" (making the reader feel cheated) or incredibly lazy villain-writing. A lot of fanfiction features the Evil Man who is evil because he is a man and will launch into rambling diatribes about 'ungodly heathens', try to beat the saintly protagonists with a belt, and then try to rape them, and it's just cringe-inducing.

I don't think I'm alone in this, considering the reaction to moacube's comments on tumblr. There is no shortage of gayngst out there. Being able to just enjoy the romance is much less common.

I didn't mention 'strong focus', but games, when GxG relationships are treated like GxB, game seems so unreal to me. If I'd find a girl for myself I wouldn't be as calm and collected; rather worried that every time we hold hands while walking down a street somebody would observe us... and think all kinds of things.
I usually just don't enjoy games when I find the concept unrealistic.