New Term for Visual Novels? [split]

[2dt]

As a disclaimer, I'm of the boat that VNs are more about story than they are about gameplay. Key difference is when I'm playing a "game", I am in essence competing with something. Struggling to overcome a certain obstacle or challenge imposed by the rules. With a story, it's not about overcoming, more like witnessing or experiencing. In that sense, I don't play visual novels to compete, I play them to witness. On the other hand, if we're talking about dating-sim type visual novels where it's about stats and point tracking, that becomes squarely a game, since the mechanic is about overcoming a certain goal.

Anyway, onto the meat of my post.

I advocate that we should get away from the terms Visual novel and Kinetic novel, particularly when talking to people outside the community. For instance:

• If I tell someone I made a visual novel, it's not a stretch to think they'd interpret that as a "graphic novel", or a "novel with pictures", which is not what it is at all.
• If I tell someone I made a kinetic novel, most people don't even really have a strong grasp of what "kinetic" really means, especially not within the context of a text based story. Plus the term kinetic really doesn't make that much sense either. Kinetic pertains to motion. That doesn't preclude a visual novel from having a "kinetic" nature.

Something I wanna try, (and please, feel free to slam me with hatred and disgust if you disagree with my idea ) is as follows:

What we call Kinetic Novel, I want to call "Stage Novel". The idea is akin to watching a live theatre performance "on-stage". You as the audience mostly don't have any input as to how the story progresses, but there are "actors" on-screen, and dialogue/narration spoken amongst them. They are "performing" in front of you.

What we call Visual Novel (in the interactive, choice based sense... good grief), I want to call "Touch Novel". This is for two reasons:

1. In working on EVEN, I am ambitiously trying to bring visual novels to all modern touch based devices (smartphones and tablets), as such I think it best to coin a new, clean term that best expresses this kind of genre for the modern apps age.
2. The idea of "touch" involves a primitive, hands-on "interaction". In Stage Novel, you're watching. In a novel, you're reading. In an audio novel, you're listening. A "touch novel" thus implies it's something you're touching, thus interacting with it. It also replicates the idea of tapping on the "choices" mechanism most branched visual novels employ.

And really I just think it sounds cool.

EDIT: Got so carried away by the OT-ness that I forgot to answer OP. I think Asceai hit in on the head with this first response. You should be aiming for good visuals just because you want to make your work good, not because you want to attract a different audience. Visuals do go a long way with marketability no matter the genre or subgenre though.

[Lesleigh63]

A kinetic novel can be a good place to start if this is your first VN. A single path can make it easier to handle with respect to the coding and it's a big boost to actually finish the project. Whatever project you're tackling, I'd say make it the best that you can with respect to story, art, GUI, sound and write a good blurb page when you post it.

VN's can cover such a wide base and no one VN will probably appeal to everyone. If there's a particular genre of VNs that you like playing, then maybe this is the type of thing you'd like to make and the area you should concentrate on. Make it the best you can, and aim to improve on it in the next one you make.

[Applegate]

I also hate the term "KN", if only because it is the only sub-set of Visual Novels that gets its own name and needs to be referred to as something else.

2dt, I think suddenly calling everything by a new name would be forced and impossible to do; we're not exactly in charge of a 'market' here, as Visual Novels originate from Japan and they will likely continue marketing them under that name. Visual Novel enthusiasts in the west will be looking for "Visual Novels" written in English, and likely not "Touch Novels". Unless, of course, an enterprising person manages to somehow lodge that term into their hearts by creating something good, but by and far most of the people here lack the ability to make something so wildly successful. At least, not right now.

Similar for changing the term "kinetic novel"; while kinetics don't come into play much at all for a kinetic novel as opposed to a visual novel, changing the way people refer to them requires people to actually do it. Getting a number of people to put [no-choice] as a tag instead of [KN] may well incite others who normally use [KN] to refer to their works in a different way. You'd need to attract more and more, however, if you really want to get rid of the misnomer.

I feel like this discussion should really have its own topic than to be worn out here, though. It's hardly the topic the OP intended.

[Tempus]

I advocate that we should get away from the terms Visual novel and Kinetic novel, particularly when talking to people outside the community. For instance: [reasons]

I agree with that for similar reasons and have been thinking about it for some time. An additional reason I'd add is that it totally omits the auditory facet of visual novels.

To be blunt, I think both of those proposed terms don't work. The first, "stage novel", uses a flawed analogy and results in a term just as indecipherable as "kinetic novel" — if you'd never heard of a "stage novel" before, what would you think it is? I don't think what we now refer to as a "visual novel" would come to mind. Probably something more like a stage production of a novel or a stage production with the form of a novel.

As I said, the analogy is flawed: one of the important things that distinguishes stage productions is that they are live and performed. There will be variations from night to night, actors may be replaced, as well as improvise or invite unlimited interaction from the audience (rather than the comparatively heavy restrictions a computer-based interaction involves.) A better but still flawed analogy is film. When you watch a movie it's always the same. An even closer analogy is computer games since you can optionally affect their outcome, but that's also flawed.

Touch novel is just wrong — it's device specific which VNs are demonstrably not. Touch is hardly an integral part of a VN.

Taking into account that the term "visual novel" misleadingly connotes a novel accompanied by or told via visuals (AKA, a graphic novel), and that it omits the auditory side of things, I'd propose "multimedia novel." It's a novel whose atomic elements are not just words, but words, graphics and sound. As with novels, they can take many different forms. Shorter ones are "multimedia novellas." The term itself could be abbreviated "MN" (just a single 'm'.) Since player choice isn't what defines a multimedia novel, the term doesn't need to account for choice.

Similar for changing the term "kinetic novel"; while kinetics don't come into play much at all for a kinetic novel as opposed to a visual novel, changing the way people refer to them requires people to actually do it.

And getting people to change their behaviour requires proposing changes. I think change is possible and inevitable. And multimedia novels are a young medium, after all

[2dt]

I advocate that we should get away from the terms Visual novel and Kinetic novel, particularly when talking to people outside the community. For instance: [reasons]

I agree with that for similar reasons and have been thinking about it for some time. An additional reason I'd add is that it totally omits the auditory facet of visual novels.

To be blunt, I think both of those proposed terms don't work. The first, "stage novel", uses a flawed analogy and results in a term just as indecipherable as "kinetic novel" — if you'd never heard of a "stage novel" before, what would you think it is? I don't think what we now refer to as a "visual novel" would come to mind. Probably something more like a stage production of a novel or a stage production with the form of a novel.

As I said, the analogy is flawed: one of the important things that distinguishes stage productions is that they are live and performed. There will be variations from night to night, actors may be replaced, as well as improvise or invite unlimited interaction from the audience (rather than the comparatively heavy restrictions a computer-based interaction involves.) A better but still flawed analogy is film. When you watch a movie it's always the same. An even closer analogy is computer games since you can optionally affect their outcome, but that's also flawed.

Touch novel is just wrong — it's device specific which VNs are demonstrably not. Touch is hardly an integral part of a VN.

Taking into account that the term "visual novel" misleadingly connotes a novel accompanied by or told via visuals (AKA, a graphic novel), and that it omits the auditory side of things, I'd propose "multimedia novel." It's a novel whose atomic elements are not just words, but words, graphics and sound. As with novels, they can take many different forms. Shorter ones are "multimedia novellas." The term itself could be abbreviated "MN" (just a single 'm'.) Since player choice isn't what defines a multimedia novel, the term doesn't need to account for choice.

Similar for changing the term "kinetic novel"; while kinetics don't come into play much at all for a kinetic novel as opposed to a visual novel, changing the way people refer to them requires people to actually do it.

And getting people to change their behaviour requires proposing changes. I think change is possible and inevitable. And multimedia novels are a young medium, after all

Good points.

I'd like to clarify that the term "touch novel" doesn't necessarily mean it's related to touch devices. If you read my second point closely, it's intended to denote interactive and hands-on. That it happens to evoke the idea of modern and futuristic touch-based devices is part of why I like the term so much. I think it's something that would relate very well to a mainstream audience.

I've thought of multimedia novel before. Certainly, it's a very accurate term. Problem is it really doesn't roll off the tongue (not that Kinetic or Visual is any better mind you). Abbreviating it to make it easier to say brings us right back to square one. What's an M-novel? "What did you do this weekend?" "I worked on my MN". Makes sense to a visual novel author, makes no sense to the regular Joe.

I've thought about "animated novel" as well. Pretty shaky on that one though.

This is a pretty fun topic and I'd love to continue but I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than it already has been. Perhaps we should create a separate "Coining new terms for VNs" thread?

[Tempus]

I'd like to clarify that the term "touch novel" doesn't necessarily mean it's related to touch devices. If you read my second point closely, it's intended to denote interactive and hands-on. That it happens to evoke the idea of modern and futuristic touch-based devices is part of why I like the term so much. I think it's something that would relate very well to a mainstream audience.

Perhaps the idea itself would resonate with the mainstream audience, but the connection between the term and the idea is not obvious. What makes "touch" particularly misleading is that it has dual meanings in this context, one of which only applies sometimes. You'd be forever explaining to newcomers that a "touch novel" isn't just for touch devices. Another possible misinterpretation is that "touch novel" is referring to a braille novel. Imagine how frustrating it'd be to have a major publication discuss our medium as though it were exclusive to touch devices — it's the kind of simple mistake I've seen made when big publications cover things outside the general public's purview.

I've thought of multimedia novel before. Certainly, it's a very accurate term. Problem is it really doesn't roll off the tongue (not that Kinetic or Visual is any better mind you). Abbreviating it to make it easier to say brings us right back to square one. What's an M-novel? "What did you do this weekend?" "I worked on my MN". Makes sense to a visual novel author, makes no sense to the regular Joe. [...] I've thought about "animated novel" as well. Pretty shaky on that one though.

That's a problem with acronyms in general, rather than a problem with any specific acronym. Graphic novels have a self-descriptive name, but no one would know what a "GN" is without the context being clear and possibly the acronym itself being explained. "Multimedia novel" has a couple of more syllables and four more letters than "visual novel", sure, but I think that it's a small price to pay for greater accuracy and intuitiveness.

"Animated novel" would be similar to "touch novel" in that it's only accurate and intuitive in specific circumstances. You'd need to explain the caveat to newcomers that not all things called "animated novels" are animated. What, then, would a non-animated "animated novel" be? A novel?

This is a pretty fun topic and I'd love to continue but I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than it already has been. Perhaps we should create a separate "Coining new terms for VNs" thread?

At this point it'd make more sense for a mod to split this topic given how much context it'd provide for a new one on the same subject. It's already hijacked

[fleet]

Why not just call a kinetic novel a web comic? Lots of folks read web comics.

[PyTom]

I think it's too late to come up with a new term for visual novels.

After a decade of use, the term "visual novel" has largely displaced the former term "dating sim" for our interaction-light, story-heavy medium. It's gotten to the point where the term visual novel is recognized by the general gaming media, and is occasionally applied to aspects of larger games. I don't think we should simply give up the sort of name recognition the term has at the moment, in favor of new terms that have no name recognition, and aren't any more accurate name-wise.

I do think that it could be possible to come up with a better name for KN, which is much less well-known - to the point where it probably makes sense to call them "choiceless visual novels" in contexts where the kinetic novel name is unlikely to be known.

[SundownKid]

As much of a weird term as visual novel is, the other terms are even more confusing. Not all visual novels have a resemblance to a stage performance, since usually plays are not done from the perspective of a character in the play (unless you are actually participating in the play). And touch novel implies touch screen gameplay, which is not in all visual novels either.

A kinetic novel isn't a web comic unless it's in a comic format. (E.g. panels and stuff), and it's on a website. And in that case it would be a motion comic.

I think that "Single-Path Visual Novel" is a better option than "Choiceless Visual Novel" because it doesn't sound derogatory. Either that or "Guided Visual Novel" to imply that the player is guided through the story without making any choices. Well, technically, I'd call them a reader rather than a player.

[Donmai]

Wait. Why that title "New Term for Visual Novels"?

I think it's too late to come up with a new term for visual novels.

I believe that was not the main focus of the latest discussion on the "mother" thread (http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=26502).

I do think that it could be possible to come up with a better name for KN, which is much less well-known - to the point where it probably makes sense to call them "choiceless visual novels" in contexts where the kinetic novel name is unlikely to be known.

I believe that's mainly what the discussion was about.
(On a side note, should I call a VN with choices "Choose your own adventure VN"? I see all visual novels as... hmm... visual novels, having choices or not. Also, one who reads any kind of novel isn't a reader?)

[Tempus]

I think it's too late to come up with a new term for visual novels. [...] After a decade of use, the term "visual novel" has largely displaced the former term "dating sim" for our interaction-light, story-heavy medium.

The latter point undermines the former — if the term "visual novel" has itself superseded another term that shows that it's not too late to change what something is called once it's been established.

It's gotten to the point where the term visual novel is recognized by the general gaming media, and is occasionally applied to aspects of larger games. I don't think we should simply give up the sort of name recognition the term has at the moment, in favor of new terms that have no name recognition, and aren't any more accurate name-wise.

Barely recognised beyond a few titles. Coverage of our medium constitutes a pretty small fraction of a drop in the ocean that is the general gaming media at this point. I'll also add that gaming media simply includes our medium as though it were a castrated game, rather than a separate medium. People who already know the medium will have no trouble finding it again. On top of that, there's a new term which is both more accurate and intuitive, "multimedia novel."

I do think that it could be possible to come up with a better name for KN, which is much less well-known - to the point where it probably makes sense to call them "choiceless visual novels" in contexts where the kinetic novel name is unlikely to be known.

Since VNs can be mixed with games — have mini games, be part free-roaming RPGs, and so on — it'd make sense to define the most basic member of the medium as being as far away from a game as possible so as to create a wide spectrum between them where hybrids can live. By making choice an inherit part of the medium, it has to be negated every time it's absent — i.e., it's defined in terms of something it doesn't even have. As SundownKid said, this has the unintended side-effect of making it sound deficient in someway, as well as just being backwards; new terms should be added to describe a work as its complexity increases, not as it decreases.

Therefore, I propose an unadorned "visual novel" / "multimedia novel" as being the term for the most basic member of the medium, a novel whose elements are the word, graphics and sound. (I was going to define it as a "series of text-interactions accompanied by graphics and sound", but I think PyTom is right that the medium is interaction-light, given the fact that a large portion of works allow you to enable auto advancement of text, interaction hardly seems to be the core of the medium, so much as an incidental part of it.) When they feature choices, they'd be called "branching multimedia novels."

While it's a little more verbose, people aren't going to be typing it longhand most of the time. It's the kind of thing you'd have in a site description, for example. In communities familiar with them it'll just be "MNs" and "branching MNs" or "BMNs", which is little different in length to what we currently use. The added benefit of the longhand is it's less opaque to newcomers, whether they be players or reporters, as well as more accurate.

The language we choose to discuss our medium is incredibly important. Our development vocabulary should be something we craft for utility, something we consciously choose, rather than letting arbitrary events in history decide them for us. If we want more serious discussions about our medium — deep analyses and insightful critics, like those in literature, film, music, and, more recently, games — then we need to provide the framework for them. Changing terminology won't bring that — alone. However, choosing sensible terminology that's useful for academic discussion is a small part of a broader attitude toward our medium and its future. One day people will discuss our medium in academic institutions with the same seriousness they do with literature and film. It's a matter of when, not if. Our attitudes and practices now determine how far away that future is.

[Lesleigh63]

If the visual novel community is bigger than this forum you could have trouble trying to change the terminology and getting it accepted by all parties.

I was curious as to why they were called 'kinetic' in the first place. Went and googled the term, and found it was a brand name for the branch of a Japanese company that produced this type of non-branching visual novel and it seems to have been adopted by the broader community from there.

[Asceai]

I was curious as to why they were called 'kinetic' in the first place. Went and googled the term, and found it was a brand name for the branch of a Japanese company that produced this type of non-branching visual novel and it seems to have been adopted by the broader community from there.

Which is pretty funny because not all KineticNovel releases were non-branching.

[trooper6]

I think the word "novel" in the term "visual novel" is problematic, but I live with it. Why? Because a VN is not a novel. Yes it is a story with words...but no one called a silent film...which also had words to read...a film novel. Remember Interactive Fiction from back in the day? It wasn't called Interactive Fiction Novel. We don't call Shakespeare's plays theatrical novels. To my mind, a VN is its own separate category...sadly it has the inappropriate word novel in it. It also has, to some people's minds, the unfortunate word visual or kinetic in it.

But genre makes are always a bit weird. Adventure games and Action-Adventure games are nothing like each other and explaining the difference to new gamers can be a bit tricky, but you just say...this is what this type of game is called, and you move on. VNs are an already recognized category. See the tags on reddit, the review blogs and datsbases...the Wikipedia pages...and so on.

Calling it a visual novel does no harm and it already aphas some built up community and recognition. I'd rather call them story games, but that isn't going to happen either.

So I say let's just keep the term but work on redefining and expanding and popularizing it.

[MapleWizen]

Daily reminder that in grorious Nippon, VNs are often referred to as ADV (adventure) games--which is what they are. KNs are basically glorified comic books, whereas VNs with choices are basically ADVs with branching linear storylines.

What sets VNs and KNs apart from the typical adventure game, however, is a heavy focus on visuals, and therefore deserves its own categorization.

And before anyone calls The Walking Dead a VN, read this: http://weeaboo.nl/2013/01/the-walking-d ... al-novels/