So, we're here... what do we do now?

[Saltome]

Hello everyone, most of you probably don't know me yet, 'cause I'm a new face.
And that in essence is the problem I am raising here.
People come to the forum, get drowned out in the crowd of members who have already established themselves, then vanish leaving but a trace.
Yes, there is an introduction forum, there is a tutorial forum, there is a recruitment forum and there are project forums, but... what is happening in reality is that new users are provided with the means of surviving and are left to fend for themselves until hopefully somebody notices their feeble attempts. Would you really want to join a group which treats you that way?
This is a common situation in a lot of the forums out there, but that also explains their fleeting success, partially.
The whole forum stands to gain from keeping the new members around, and yet things have been left in the hands of the fates.
Am I the only one who is concerned by this?

[78909087]

Well, being a fairly new member myself, I know that the people who are actually interested in helping will regularly browse active and unanswered topics. So if you're afraid of being drowned out, I think the way to keep up is to put more effort into it. I think any platform is like this- whether starting websites, blogs, or programming sites like this one. The community works together, and it's up to everyone to work at creating a successful environment.
There's plenty inactive, or abusive users.
I'm much happier with a few replies.

[Saltome]

I'm still only evaluating the environment, but every evidence points to the absence of an organized effort to incorporate new members into the forum.
I know that this is the same all abroad, and I already said so myself, I just wanted to see if there is anybody around here who understands the problem and wants to address it.
I think this is a matter of missed gains, or worse, lost resources, and it should taken more seriously. Now I don't expect people to drop their big important projects to go and babysit a little nobody who just came onto the scene, but the admins should put a bit of effort since the well-being and future of the forum are their responsibility.

[trooper6]

I don't think your concerns really apply to this forum as this is not primarily a social forum with insiders and outsiders.

This is for the most part a very functional forum. While their are some social threads, that isn't really where the majority of the activity on the forums takes place. People want advice on how to code Renpy. People want to recruit. People want feedback on their projects. They want to advertise their projects. They want to discuss some aspects of development. If you want to do any of those things, go to the relevant thread and then do them. New people aren't ignored. People regularly step in and answer the same questions in the Questions Forum from new members over and over. When I was new I asked basic new person questions and people answered them with patience and detail.

I've not seen new people wanting to get help with coding having "their fleeting attempts" ignored...and even though I haven't been here very long, I know these forums have long past the fleeting stage. They've been going strong for over ten years!

Different types of forums need different types of things. Before deciding if this forum needs a thing some other forum might need, check out what this forum is first and what it's function is and how it is currently working.

Also, if you have an inspiration for how forums should work, considering you project an air of leadership, maybe you should create your own forums and administer them in whatever way you imagine is the best way to do a forum as well as participating in the forums here.

[Taleweaver]

You'll also find this community an incredibly useful one as long as you have anything specific you need help with. Want to make a new game and need artists? Open a recruitment thread or ask an artist for help in their own threads. Need advice with Ren'Py? Ask any technical question in the respective forum! Want to know what people think of your idea? Open a thread in the Ideas forum. Want to join a project? Go to the respective thread and ask!

We're really, really inclusive. All it takes is some minimal effort from you to get included

[Saltome]

Trooper, "going strong" you say? Yes, 10 years certainly is a while, but let me give you a little perspective,
1.Over 12,000(~50%) people of all registered members have never made a single post.
2. Just over 500(2.5%) people have more than 100 posts each.
3. Only 40(0.2%) people have more than a 1000 posts.
4. Only 1 person has more than 5000 posts.
That took 10 years. And I'm not even taking into account all the people who came to the forum and decided it doesn't have what they need, people that could have become valuable members of the community.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't wanna bash on anybody, I'm sure you are doing fine to last this long, it certainly appears to be an active and supportive place.
I'm just sayin', with a "little effort" this place could get a lot bigger. Ya'nno before all the old members start retiring and there is nobody left to pick up the slack.
I suppose that's all I have to say, no need to repeat myself any longer.

Taleweaver, I will narrow things down a bit.
My specific problem is that as far as the forum is concerned I have no practical experience that pertains to the games that get developed here, and there is nobody to give me a direction, because I don't know anybody around, or what people need.
And the other problem. I could try to get into a project, but the most likely outcomes are, either I get rejected for not having the required skills, or someone will take me in hoping I can meet their unrealistic demands and things will fall apart without any experience for me.
And I've heard it before, I know this is a bleak outlook on things, but this is what I've come to expect from the world.

[MaiMai]

I don't think proportions of members and posts should be something you need to worry. In the five years I've been here, the forums have undergone plenty of changes that were made to accommodate newcomers older members alike so it's not like our mods don't put any effort into keeping this place running. (Although if you have specific suggestions, I'm sure they're open to reading about what improvements could be made.)

LSF isn't really a place where we worry about numbers; what concerns people is giving advice about programming and asset creation to each other which there will always be plenty of questions of from beginners and veterans alike. We haven't dried up on that front especially since Ren'Py is the most well known free source engine for VN creation that people with an interest in VNs get directed to.

My specific problem is that as far as the forum is concerned I have no practical experience that pertains to the games that get developed here, and there is nobody to give me a direction, because I don't know anybody around, or what people need.
And the other problem. I could try to get into a project, but the most likely outcomes are, either I get rejected for not having the required skills, or someone will take me in hoping I can meet their unrealistic demands and things will fall apart without any experience for me.
And I've heard it before, I know this is a bleak outlook on things, but this is what I've come to expect from the world.

If you want to know what people need, you look in the Recruitment & Services section. It's been revamped recently so it's divided into recruitment/service offers for artists, writers, programmers, etc. As for the possible outcomes, eh, it'll happen, but then again it might not. You can make all the assumptions you want, but nothing will get done by twiddling thumbs. If anything, you'll learn what your limits are or what you need to improve on.

[Inksword]

Have you actually tried starting a project Saltome? I'm asking because you yourself only have four posts on this forum, one in the introduction thread and three here, so it seems like you're jumping to a lot of conclusions without actually having tried to interact on the forums. Give it a try! If you don't feel like you have skills to post a work in progress thread, try commenting on other game creators' threads, I've mostly seem creators happily responding to peoples questions and comments there! There's also the "Other Topics" section of the forum which is more discussion oriented.

Other than that, this is a game for making video games. It may be a narrow and small demographic but not every place needs to be bustling to be effective. The Creator of Ren'Py is here and I've seen them answering tons of coding questions from newbies and strangers, so I don't think there's any of the elitism you seem to be implying with your posts.

As for getting on a project... that's sort of up to you. If you're not confident yet, we have other areas of the forum for for tutorials and questions, and places just to post your art/writing/music/whatever. You have to work at it to get good, you can't expect someone who's put blood sweat and tears into their skills or a project to welcome you in before you do the same, it would be unfair to them. If you're worried about not meeting expectations of other people, why not make a game yourself? That way you understand your own limits and work at your own pace and skill level. You will learn a LOT making your first game. If you don't want to write anything take your favorite short story and turn that into a kinetic novel, doesn't matter if the art is stickfigures or not you'll at least learn the coding!

Anyways, I don't think the goal of these forums is to be popular, it's to help people make games, and I think it does a fine job of doing that. I'm still struggling to see exactly what you're talking about with people not being welcoming, I got comments on my very first thread I made that were positive so I don't think it's as bad as you may be afraid it is My suggestion, is go to the asset creation area and do any tutorials and exercises you can find there. Then go out on the internet and do even MORE tutorials and exercises on different sites. The only way to get better is to do the thing you want to be better at!

Hope that helped!

[Caveat Lector]

I'm just sayin', with a "little effort" this place could get a lot bigger. Ya'nno before all the old members start retiring and there is nobody left to pick up the slack.
I suppose that's all I have to say, no need to repeat myself any longer.

People tend to stick with forums for a certain amount of years and then move on. It's just like real life--people rarely ever keep the same friends they had growing up either because these friends end up going to another school and you lose touch, or you have a major falling-out, or you just naturally drift apart without any major drama because you developed different interests. I don't hang out on the same forums I did years ago, either because I developed different interests and moved on, or because I felt like I was being silenced. I can probably see myself still keeping contact with others on these forums ten years from now, but even then I probably wouldn't keep in touch with every single one.

My specific problem is that as far as the forum is concerned I have no practical experience that pertains to the games that get developed here, and there is nobody to give me a direction, because I don't know anybody around, or what people need.

The only way you CAN get to know anybody, or know what people need, or get experience, is if you take the time to socialize with us. Participate in forum discussions. Give your own two cents on any given topic. Start up discussions asking what people think of this plot element or how to pull off this coding method. My first post, I just jumped in and asked people what they thought of how to give a villain a proper send-off. It went over well. Or, download someone's game under the Completed Games section and post your thoughts.

[Shaples]

As a relatively new member of the forum myself, I think the only thing holding you back from interacting on these forums is a reluctance to do so. It's a very large and active community, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to roll out a red carpet for every new member, but there are new threads every day asking for feedback or opinions, and tons of games and demos looking for players and constructive criticism. This forum is home to all types, from people who are brand spankin' new to seasoned professionals, but so far I've found everyone to be incredibly supportive of one another, regardless of experience levels. If you never take the plunge and respond to any posts, though, of course you're not going to feel included - but no one else can do that for you.

Right now, with my whopping 12 posts, probably no one knows who I am. But the only way to get involved and get to know people is to keep interacting with them. You only get out as much as you put in. Is someone going to throw money at you to work on their VN sight unseen? Probably not, and as you said yourself, they probably shouldn't. But there are whole sections on this forum dedicated to helping people grow their skills, get feedback on their work, and connect with other creative types to help you get to a point where you can confidently contribute to another project or start your own. That's sort of the point.

Also, you mentioned the number of members on the forums that don't have any posts, but personally I think that has less to do with people not being included and more to do with why they're here in the first place. In addition to being a great resource for game developers, these forums are also awesome for people who love to play visual novels. There are tons of new releases posted here all the time, many of which you might not hear about outside this community. Having an account makes it a lot easier to keep track of them, even if you never make a single post yourself. One glance at the guestbook and you'll see that almost everyone admits to lurking here for a long time before registering, which means there's a lot of value here even for silent members. Yeah, there are probably more than a few people that came, registered, and left, but I bet a lot of them are still here, skulking around the Completed Games, WIP, and Ren'Py Cookbook threads.

[sasquatchii]

As a relatively new member of the forum myself, I think the only thing holding you back from interacting on these forums is a reluctance to do so. It's a very large and active community, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to roll out a red carpet for every new member, but there are new threads every day asking for feedback or opinions, and tons of games and demos looking for players and constructive criticism. This forum is home to all types, from people who are brand spankin' new to seasoned professionals, but so far I've found everyone to be incredibly supportive of one another, regardless of experience levels. If you never take the plunge and respond to any posts, though, of course you're not going to feel included - but no one else can do that for you.

Right now, with my whopping 12 posts, probably no one knows who I am. But the only way to get involved and get to know people is to keep interacting with them. You only get out as much as you put in.

The only way you CAN get to know anybody, or know what people need, or get experience, is if you take the time to socialize with us. Participate in forum discussions. Give your own two cents on any given topic. Start up discussions asking what people think of this plot element or how to pull off this coding method. My first post, I just jumped in and asked people what they thought of how to give a villain a proper send-off. It went over well. Or, download someone's game under the Completed Games section and post your thoughts.

Couldn't have said it better myself! The best way to get started on here is to jump in feet first. If you're worried that no one will let you onto their team, start your own project! Even if you don't think you have the proper skills, you can try to recruit other people to help out, and we actually have a creative commons forum with tons of free resources to help you get started.

Also, I don't get why the stats you posted are necessarily a bad thing? People come and go, as Caveat Lector said— life happens. Visual novels are a pretty niche hobby at the moment (although growing) and it's not something a lot of people even know exist. The kindness & helpful attitude of the people here are more important than numbers, not to mention all of the exciting & new topics posted in the forums.

[pocoscon]

I don't believe Lemmasoft is really like that. I know what you mean about how some new members disappear, but usually they just leave and don't, or rarely, say anything. For my personal experience, I've seen a good number of newbies get feedback from people on their projects and get into group projects to.

I agree with Inksword that one should not come on here to become popular, not that I'm saying you are, but some people do and they might get disappointed if it doesn't happen. For me, this place is helping me make Visual Novels and find other creative people who love to make them as well. I'll tell you now, I have found some really awesome people for one of my games =).

This forum is also very friendly to and people are always willing to help or give advice to others. I don't think you have to be well known for people to play your game or for you to join a group. Just be friendly and offer what you can to your project and other projects. I really think you'll meet some nice people here and will have fun. Just roam around and see what you'd like to chat about .

[Marionette]

Yeah, its not really that kind of forum. Lots of people join/visit for a specific reason and stay only until they've got what they wanted before leaving. Its not really all that surprising given that its a basically forum for a niche within a niche, ie. Visual Novel Game Development. The forum is pretty passive so, like people said, you basically get what you put in.

But anyway in the spirit of inclusiveness; You just gotta ask yourself what is it you want to do?

Got an idea? You could try making a game of your own, you mentioned having some programming experience, so you should be able to pick up renpy coding pretty quickly, its hardly the most complex engine to script for. But if you want to know where to start i recommend the tutorial game that comes with the engine. Between the tutorial and the sample game 'The Question', you should have more than enough to go on and make a simple game for yourself, learning as you go. If you've any questions or need help feel free to ask in the sections for that, questions don't typically go unanswered for very long.

Maybe you have an idea but you think it needs a little polish first? Check out the Works in progress section, or its subsections depending on how far along your idea is.

Don't have an idea but still want to have a crack at making something? Check out the Ideas Dump in the Creator Discussion Section. Give a lonely idea a loving home, make it your own and roll with it.

Would rather help someone else to start with? Make a thread offering your services, or offer yourself in others threads in the recruitment section.

Something else you'd rather discuss about the whole making game thing? Creator Corner is your place.

Just wanna chew the fat and talk about something other than game dev for a bit? Check out the 'Other sections'.


Other than that, welcome to the forums, join in, post, mingle, get to know people, learn about the development process if you're interested, and most of all try to have fun. :3

[meiri]

I'm just sayin', with a "little effort" this place could get a lot bigger. Ya'nno before all the old members start retiring and there is nobody left to pick up the slack.

As others have said, numbers aren't much in regards to this forum. Also, making this forum bigger is certainly possible but that requires much work-- where do we advertise? How do we advertise to other members? Will it cost money to do so? How will we find the time? Who will actually DO that? The admins are very busy and productive and active members, even with very few. Also, you have to realize, even if we tried to approach the indie game community, it may not prove effective. I'm not sure if it is COMMON opinion, but there is a widely shared opinion that VNs are not games-- even within LSF itself. VNs can also carry certain stereotypes, with people assuming "oh, those weird japanese porn games?" when VNs are brought up. Certainly, not everyone would agree with this but it would be a difficult hurdle in gathering more members. Lastly, you seem to feel that new members get overshadowed. Gathering more members certainly would not be an solution to this.

My specific problem is that as far as the forum is concerned I have no practical experience that pertains to the games that get developed here, and there is nobody to give me a direction, because I don't know anybody around, or what people need.
And the other problem. I could try to get into a project, but the most likely outcomes are, either I get rejected for not having the required skills, or someone will take me in hoping I can meet their unrealistic demands and things will fall apart without any experience for me.

I see what you mean here. The forum doesn't really have a "guide-you-through-it" process. But there isn't much to guide you through. If you have a question, even if it is asked a million times, people answer the thread because LSF runs a LOT on feedback. The main way these forums work is question and answer. "I need an artist. Can anyone draw battlegear? -Yes, I can!" "What kind of GUI design is best for my visual novel? -Oh, look at this visual novel, [name], a lot of people liked the GUI in that one!" "How does writing a VN differ from a short story or poem? -Lots of ways. Writing a VN takes...blahblahblah"

Your concern also seems to be that your ideas might be rejected and that there's no way for you to get experience on these forums. I'm going to use the Recruitment forums as an example here. We have plenty of people come in and say "Hey! I have this idea and I need a team of...

• !" Sometimes people skip over rules of the forums and an admin or common user comes through and tells them that they should revise the post if they want a better chance of finding a team.
  In most cases a VN is not completed because the leader realizes how much WORK it is. VNs are a hell of a lot of work.
  
  Lastly, (since I dont want this to get too long), this is a pretty friendly and active community, in my opinion. You seem to have not made very many posts yet. I would try getting feedback, posting an idea, etc, before drawing conclusions. I'll be honest, I found it overwhelming too, as I felt like I'd get overshadowed by other users, but surprisingly, that was not the case.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I agree with the general sentiment here. You just have to get in there and get involved. I've been around for awhile but I was new once too. No-one knew me, but I put up some art, took part in Nanoreno, played games and gave feedback, debated, argued, ranted, discussed, critiqued. I was present and through that people will start to associate your username to a certain identity. People won't know you are here or who you are if you don't leave any evidence of that fact! (I haven't been as active as I used to be and because of that I'm pretty sure I'm less known on here than I was because that's what happens when you don't talk to people XD)

Once upon a time I used to take notice and remember all the new members, but the forum has grown too large for that and I just don't have time. However, if someone came up to me and asked a question or posted a thread I could contribute to, that I CAN interact with.

I would be interested to hear what you think the community should be doing for new members?