THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

Forum organization and occasional community-building.
Forum rules
Questions about Ren'Py should go in the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements forum.
Message
Author
User avatar
Nicol Armarfi
Regular
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:03 am
Completed: Katawa Shoujo, The Circular Gate, Broken Sky
Projects: Katawa Shoujo, The Circular Gate, Driftwood, Escape from Puzzlegate
Organization: 4LS
Location: Canada
Contact:

THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#1 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:13 pm

RenpyTom wrote:And with that, I'm going to declare that any meta-discussion should occur in a new thread under General Discussion.
It has been spoken, so shall it be.

Original thread: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 0&start=60
Jake wrote:Since this is actually on-topic - and I'm pretty interested - could you name some good examples? Because I can't think of any stories I've enjoyed, off-hand, that haven't started with some kind of hook.
To name some film, "The Invisible" started rather typically, with the main character waking up, getting dressed, eating breakfast and attending class. There was nothing particularly outstanding about this but it still helped explain the setting and characters in a very moderate pace without trying to force interest on the viewer. The Aria anime and manga series is also pretty interesting. It was somewhat of a fictional depiction of a postmodern Venice on a new planet: it began simply with the character explaining the setting, and going through her typical daily routine. Which, once again just informs the viewer of the setting and characters without trying to force interest.

The Wheel of Time series of novels by Robert Jordan are also a decent example. I can't say I've read each of them (I've only read the first three, in all honesty), though the three I've read followed a similar opening to the other two examples I mentioned above.

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4053
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: something mysterious involving yuri, usually
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#2 Post by papillon » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:15 pm

And you'll notice that there are very few slice-of-life-happenings media which are very long without having an actual story which runs through them anyway; they're not typically just a series of vignettes.
Snow Sakura was, in my opinion, too much slice-of-life... I got bored. :)

Not straight at the beginning, though. I'm not at home to look at my copy of the game to remember how it began, but the beginning must have been at least attention-grabbing enough to start me going for a while... it was only later in the game that it started really dragging, and I've never yet gone back to finish more than one path. The girls were cute and everyone was nice and there was nothing actually WRONG with the story... but for me, it wasn't compelling.

User avatar
N0UGHTS
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#3 Post by N0UGHTS » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:13 pm

Nicol Armarfi wrote:
Jake wrote:Since this is actually on-topic - and I'm pretty interested - could you name some good examples? Because I can't think of any stories I've enjoyed, off-hand, that haven't started with some kind of hook.
To name some film, "The Invisible" started rather typically, with the main character waking up, getting dressed, eating breakfast and attending class. There was nothing particularly outstanding about this but it still helped explain the setting and characters in a very moderate pace without trying to force interest on the viewer. The Aria anime and manga series is also pretty interesting. It was somewhat of a fictional depiction of a postmodern Venice on a new planet: it began simply with the character explaining the setting, and going through her typical daily routine. Which, once again just informs the viewer of the setting and characters without trying to force interest.
Personally, I consider information like that as a hook.

To me, starting off with "an average Joe" tells me that by the end of the story, he'll be interesting. I.e., he will change. Whether he falls in love, gets killed, abducted by aliens, has to fight off vampires, etc. But, I have no indication of what will happen to him, and I want to know what. So yeah, something like that is a hook for me... For me. I have no idea about anybody else.

Errr... You could think of it like a "suspense" thing, I guess.
World Community Grid
"Thanksgiving is a day for Americans to remember that family is what really matters.
"The day after Thanksgiving is when Americans forget that and go shopping." —Jon Stewart
Thank you for playing Alter Ego. You have died.

User avatar
Wintermoon
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 701
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 3:41 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#4 Post by Wintermoon » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:46 am

Nicol Armarfi wrote:The Aria anime and manga series is also pretty interesting. It was somewhat of a fictional depiction of a postmodern Venice on a new planet: it began simply with the character explaining the setting, and going through her typical daily routine. Which, once again just informs the viewer of the setting and characters without trying to force interest.
Aria was 100% about the setting and the characters. There was no plot to speak of. If you watched the anime, you watched because of the setting and the characters. So starting with the setting and the first character is like two hooks in one.

(Note that some characters qualify as hooks, some characters only qualify as a hook once you see beyond their exterior, and some characters (notably the protagonists of most visual novels) never qualify as hooks. The girls in Aria never reveal any great hidden depths. If they don't hook you on the series in the beginning, the series isn't for you.)

Aura
Newbie
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:35 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#5 Post by Aura » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:56 am

If things like the general setting, superficial character personalities or "Hi I'm a generic dude" qualify as hooks(I'm not necessarily arguing they don't), then what does not count as a hook?

I understood this discussion to be about narrative hooks as it stems from DanshiKinshi and Jake's request for stories that don't use a direct hook (does DK demo qualify?). I suppose arguably anything can be considered to be a hook as obviously the beginning of a story tries to get the reader to become interested. However, the trick that A22 resented was throwing a blatant and/or cliched hook in the reader's face (as mrsulu suggested offhand), not using a hook in general (as he said, the advice was technically sound)

User avatar
Jake
Support Hero
Posts: 3826
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:28 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#6 Post by Jake » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:24 am

Aura wrote:If things like the general setting, superficial character personalities or "Hi I'm a generic dude" qualify as hooks(I'm not necessarily arguing they don't), then what does not count as a hook?
The hook is a thing which you put into a story early on to demonstrate to the reader that the story is interesting. Therefore, what can and can't be considered a hook depends on the story and the intended audience.

For example:
I wake up at 7:30 as the alarm goes off. Rubbing the sleep from my eyes, I make my way to the bathroom, brush my teeth and then take a quick shower. It's ten to eight by the time I finish pulling my clothes on, and I step out the door well in time to catch the bus to work.
On the way, I sit next to an old lady with a handbag; after ten minutes, she gets off at the stop by the supermarket, and I ride the rest of the way to town with an empty seat beside me.
Alighting from the bus at twenty past nine, I take a leisurely walk through the half-empty streets to the office in which I work.
This doesn't really have a hook in it - all it tells us is that the protagonist works in an office in town, which s/he gets to on the bus in the morning.
I wake up at 7:30 as the alarm goes off; Susan's already left for her early shift at Starbuck's. I make my way to the bathroom, brush my teeth - after pushing the remainder toothpaste up from the end of the tube where Susan's careless squeezing had left it - and take a quick shower. After wasting five minutes cleaning up the mess she left when she got herself ready earlier, it's ten to eight by the time I finish pulling my clothes on. Sighing inwardly to myself at the state of the kitchen after an apparently hurried breakfast, I step out the door to catch my bus - I can get a sandwich from the trolley at the office, after all.
On the way, I sit next to an old lady with a handbag. I can't help but imagine Susan at that age: wrinkled, leathery ambitionless face still making the daily trek from the suburbs to the Starbuck's to serve people crappy coffee. After ten minutes, the woman gets off to go shopping, and I'm left to myself for the rest of the way to town.
Alighting from the bus at twenty past nine, it seems I still have plenty of time to get to work. I slip into the pace of the other suited professionals flowing through the half-empty streets to their offices to appear at their desks fresh-faced and read for the day ahead.
This tells the same events, but with a (rather heavy-handed for the sake of example) hook of a man who's getting irritated with his partner about he sloppiness and lack of ambition; it sets up the reader who is interested in stories about relationships and potential problems therein.
I wake at 7:30 as the uneven whistling of the alarm pulls me from my slumber. As I brush my teeth, I wind the handle to prime the shower with my other hand, the gurgle of cold water replaced by that freshly-heated in the house's main engine a familiar noise.
Twenty minutes later and I'm stepping out of the house into the bright morning air, well in time to catch the trolley into town. As it pulls up with a hiss of escaping steam, I step aboard and find myself a seat next to a pleasant-looking old woman and enjoy the gentle vibration of the pistons that carry the carriage along the street. Arriving in town I check my pocket-watch - twenty to nine exactly. I have plenty of time to enjoy the crisp air as I stroll down theh high street to my office, the blue sky broken only by a passing passenger dirigible trailing lightly-rising smoke behind it.
This tells the same story again, but with an (again heavy-handed) emphasis on the technology of the world, as a hook to anyone who enjoys steampunk settings.

These could all be the same story, in fact - they don't exclude each other, and the same events happen in each of them - but two of them have different kinds of hook for different audiences and/or different stories.
Server error: user 'Jake' not found

A22
Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:52 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#7 Post by A22 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:52 am

Jake wrote:
Aura wrote:If things like the general setting, superficial character personalities or "Hi I'm a generic dude" qualify as hooks(I'm not necessarily arguing they don't), then what does not count as a hook?
The hook is a thing which you put into a story early on to demonstrate to the reader that the story is interesting. Therefore, what can and can't be considered a hook depends on the story and the intended audience.

For example:
I wake up at 7:30 as the alarm goes off. Rubbing the sleep from my eyes, I make my way to the bathroom, brush my teeth and then take a quick shower. It's ten to eight by the time I finish pulling my clothes on, and I step out the door well in time to catch the bus to work.
On the way, I sit next to an old lady with a handbag; after ten minutes, she gets off at the stop by the supermarket, and I ride the rest of the way to town with an empty seat beside me.
Alighting from the bus at twenty past nine, I take a leisurely walk through the half-empty streets to the office in which I work.
This doesn't really have a hook in it - all it tells us is that the protagonist works in an office in town, which s/he gets to on the bus in the morning.
I wake up at 7:30 as the alarm goes off; Susan's already left for her early shift at Starbuck's. I make my way to the bathroom, brush my teeth - after pushing the remainder toothpaste up from the end of the tube where Susan's careless squeezing had left it - and take a quick shower. After wasting five minutes cleaning up the mess she left when she got herself ready earlier, it's ten to eight by the time I finish pulling my clothes on. Sighing inwardly to myself at the state of the kitchen after an apparently hurried breakfast, I step out the door to catch my bus - I can get a sandwich from the trolley at the office, after all.
On the way, I sit next to an old lady with a handbag. I can't help but imagine Susan at that age: wrinkled, leathery ambitionless face still making the daily trek from the suburbs to the Starbuck's to serve people crappy coffee. After ten minutes, the woman gets off to go shopping, and I'm left to myself for the rest of the way to town.
Alighting from the bus at twenty past nine, it seems I still have plenty of time to get to work. I slip into the pace of the other suited professionals flowing through the half-empty streets to their offices to appear at their desks fresh-faced and read for the day ahead.
This tells the same events, but with a (rather heavy-handed for the sake of example) hook of a man who's getting irritated with his partner about he sloppiness and lack of ambition; it sets up the reader who is interested in stories about relationships and potential problems therein.
I wake at 7:30 as the uneven whistling of the alarm pulls me from my slumber. As I brush my teeth, I wind the handle to prime the shower with my other hand, the gurgle of cold water replaced by that freshly-heated in the house's main engine a familiar noise.
Twenty minutes later and I'm stepping out of the house into the bright morning air, well in time to catch the trolley into town. As it pulls up with a hiss of escaping steam, I step aboard and find myself a seat next to a pleasant-looking old woman and enjoy the gentle vibration of the pistons that carry the carriage along the street. Arriving in town I check my pocket-watch - twenty to nine exactly. I have plenty of time to enjoy the crisp air as I stroll down theh high street to my office, the blue sky broken only by a passing passenger dirigible trailing lightly-rising smoke behind it.
This tells the same story again, but with an (again heavy-handed) emphasis on the technology of the world, as a hook to anyone who enjoys steampunk settings.

These could all be the same story, in fact - they don't exclude each other, and the same events happen in each of them - but two of them have different kinds of hook for different audiences and/or different stories.
Long post is long... but flawed.

You didn't provide "hooks" there, merely the same thing with focus on different things. In the end you know that the main character:

1) Is a worker

2) Has problems with his wife in scenario 2

3) Is obsessed with technology in scenario 3

Same end: Opening the story and starting the narrative, but there is nothing of actual interest there. Go read American Psycho. The book starts off with two guys getting into a cab and they talk about their day. Is that a hook? No, because nothing of note happened, nothing of interest at all. You COULD think "oh hey maybe that'll come into play later" but it could not as much as it could. Why read so deep into it? Paranoid much?

The hook doesn't come until almost 25 pages later when the main character says "No, I'm not, I'm a fucking evil psychopath."

You guys(sulu especially) seem to think that the hook has to hit you in the face in the opening paragraphs, when it doesn't, and that is lame and stupid.

The concept of the story can also be a hook. Look at Aria, NOTHING HAPPENS. The interest comes from the concept of space gondoliers. Yokohama Kadaishi Kikou does the same thing. Nothing happens in the plot other than characters aging. The hook is the theme of humanity's twilight. For the ultimate in shitting all over hooks in a meta way, the film "Adaptation" doesn't have the "hook" or plot enter into the movie until 20 minutes in. The term "hook" is vague and encompasses mass shit, focusing on one, narrow kind of expository hook delivered in the opening paragraph of a game = shitsux.

Also, nice job saying "LOL SETTING AND CHARACTERS CAN BE A HOOK TOO SO INTERESTING" when Nicol pointed out examples of stories that start off with the main character doing something mundane just now, when Mikan got called out on how boring her hookless game was when she did it(and then reversed it and said her game didn't need such a hook after the fact).

User avatar
Jake
Support Hero
Posts: 3826
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:28 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#8 Post by Jake » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:23 pm

A22 wrote: stuff
Arrogant post is arrogant... but flawed.
A22 wrote: You didn't provide "hooks" there, merely the same thing with focus on different things.
Seriously, you're going to have to provide more-full examples of your own, then - because I can only assume that you are thinking of a totally different thing to me when you say 'hook'. The latter two of those examples contain hooks, in the meaning of the word I and everyone else I have ever talked to on the subject understand; they contain bits of information designed to demonstrate to the reader that there is an interesting element to the story. I and others have explained the meaning of the word that we're using more than once...
A22 wrote: Go read American Psycho.
I've never read it, but as it goes - I know of two people whose opinion of literature I respect who think it's poorly-written crap, which is one of the reasons I've not bothered to read it. (Maybe they're wrong, but I'm not exactly short of definitely-good things to read, so I don't waste my time on only-maybe-good things.) Just because a book is famous doesn't mean it's necessarily well-written.
A22 wrote: You guys(sulu especially) seem to think that the hook has to hit you in the face in the opening paragraphs, when it doesn't, and that is lame and stupid.
I absolutely don't think it has to hit the reader in the face, and I absolutely don't think it has to be in the opening paragraphs, for some kinds of fiction. But I still think you'll be hard-pressed to find a well-written story which doesn't introduce some notable element of interest near the beginning.

I also absolutely don't think that it's always lame and stupid to have an obvious hook in the opening paragraphs, and it's pretty narrow-minded to presume that it is just because you've seen some bad examples of that. If you're talking about short stories, for instance, then it should be in the opening paragraphs, simply because short stories are... y'know, short. And given that you don't really have time in a short story to switch pace too much, it's entirely plausible that you might want to open with an 'in your face' hook.
A22 wrote: focusing on one, narrow kind of expository hook delivered in the opening paragraph of a game = shitsux.
Right. Now stop assuming that every time we say "x" we mean "x and y and z in the cheapest way possible" and maybe we'll get along.

A22 wrote: Also, nice job saying "LOL SETTING AND CHARACTERS CAN BE A HOOK TOO SO INTERESTING" when Nicol pointed out examples of stories that start off with the main character doing something mundane just now, when Mikan got called out on how boring her hookless game was when she did it(and then reversed it and said her game didn't need such a hook after the fact).
Also, nice job on trying to frame us as hypocritical and getting all defensive over Mikan without understanding what people were saying. The point is that setting and characters can be a hook, if they're particularly interesting. A steampunk setting, for example, is particularly interesting because it's notably different from the world we live in. Sure it's not for everyone, and some people might not like steampunk, but that's not the target audience.

Mikan's game, on the other hand, doesn't (at least in that short demo, from what I recall) demonstrate a particularly unique setting or particularly unique characters. The notable information presented goes something like:

* Protagonist is starting at new school
* Protagonist lives next to girl who goes to same school
* There are more girls in his class

I mean... shock. None of this is particularly special, so as it stands it's only going to particularly appeal to people who really really like clichéd school settings. The best general-audience hook she has so far is nice art.

Maybe that very-niche audience is who she's aiming for, so maybe it's fine. But she's mentioned other bits of information - such as that it used to be an all-girls school - that I don't remember seeing in the demo. That's more interesting than "hey, a kid goes to school and there are girls there", so maybe it's worth including early on before the reader gets bored and goes to download the CG set instead of reading through the story? What kind of hooks are appropriate depend on what kind of story it is that Mikan's telling, but fundamentally her demo start as it stands is pretty dull, and if she wants to appeal to people other than hardcore school-story fans, something needs to be done about that.
Server error: user 'Jake' not found

A22 is too lazy to log in

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#9 Post by A22 is too lazy to log in » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:51 pm

Actually, I think it's your post that is "arrogant but flawed."

>Seriously, you're going to have to provide more-full examples of your own, then - because I can only assume that you are thinking of a totally different thing to me when you say 'hook'. The latter two of those examples contain hooks, in the meaning of the word I and everyone else I have ever talked to on the subject understand; they contain bits of information designed to demonstrate to the reader that there is an interesting element to the story. I and others have explained the meaning of the word that we're using more than once...

You think a guy complaining about tiny things his wife does, or obsessing over the construction of things, is a hook? Maybe if you mean in the sense that both make him come off as insane. Those things don't reveal anything about the plot, and therefore they could have little to do with the actual story, so saying "gee they must be related to the plot" would just be a big assumption. Also, wife problems/an interest in something is hardly interesting in literature, merely a character quirk, and those are so superficial that they aren't anything to write home about. If you think those are hooks, they are pretty poor ones.

>I've never read it, but as it goes - I know of two people whose opinion of literature I respect who think it's poorly-written crap, which is one of the reasons I've not bothered to read it. (Maybe they're wrong, but I'm not exactly short of definitely-good things to read, so I don't waste my time on only-maybe-good things.) Just because a book is famous doesn't mean it's necessarily well-written.

Translation: "I've never read it but people I know don't like it, so I'm not going to read it and also totally miss the point." You singled out one sentence that leads to a point, thereby misunderstanding or misconstruing the point itself. Never did I say it was well written. Nice one, jumping the gun like that. And I'm the arrogant one?

>I absolutely don't think it has to hit the reader in the face, and I absolutely don't think it has to be in the opening paragraphs, for some kinds of fiction.

So then, we agree.

>But I still think you'll be hard-pressed to find a well-written story which doesn't introduce some notable element of interest near the beginning.

That's funny, because the sentence preceding this one is I absolutely don't think it has to hit the reader in the face, and I absolutely don't think it has to be in the opening paragraphs, for some kinds of fiction. That is what I said. I never said that hooks should be disregarded entirely, did I? Perhaps you should read the part of my post you quoted:

>You guys(sulu especially) seem to think that the hook has to hit you in the face in the opening paragraphs, when it doesn't

Hurr durr

>I also absolutely don't think that it's always lame and stupid to have an obvious hook in the opening paragraphs, and it's pretty narrow-minded to presume that it is just because you've seen some bad examples of that.

Yeah, so we agree then. And then you go off about something that I never actually said.

And no, I'm not getting all defensive about Mikan, I just find it very funny and ironic. I also find it funny that your examples are not interesting, any more interesting than Mikan's game, but hers is apparently boring and mundance whereas yours has hooks.

If you agree the concept, too, can be a hook, then why are you saying that her game, of the length of which you do not know, and the plot of which you do not know, and the storytelling method of which you do not know, is devoid of anything interesting? And are you saying that people will go into a school life VN and then bail out of it if there is nothing "interesting" to hook them in the first few paragraphs?

Also, it's a school life VN. The standards are different. This is not some epic sprawling tale of action and intrigue, it's about a school, and that is made clear in every aspect of the game. No one is going to go into it expecting more, and so I am sure they will have the patience to not require a hook thrown in their face. And it's hardly a "niche audience." And Mikan also admits her art is the selling point.

But yeah, GG saying my post was just full of "stuff" when I think yours had less content... we even actually agreed but for some reason you disagree.

User avatar
Nicol Armarfi
Regular
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:03 am
Completed: Katawa Shoujo, The Circular Gate, Broken Sky
Projects: Katawa Shoujo, The Circular Gate, Driftwood, Escape from Puzzlegate
Organization: 4LS
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#10 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:13 pm

Jake wrote:Mikan's game, on the other hand, doesn't (at least in that short demo, from what I recall) demonstrate a particularly unique setting or particularly unique characters. The notable information presented goes something like:

* Protagonist is starting at new school
* Protagonist lives next to girl who goes to same school
* There are more girls in his class

I mean... shock. None of this is particularly special, so as it stands it's only going to particularly appeal to people who really really like clichéd school settings. The best general-audience hook she has so far is nice art.
This is exactly what I've been arguing against the whole time. Your point here is that there is nothing in the beginning which catches interest, thus needing something else to hook them. This completely goes against your previous point saying that a story does not even need to start with a hook.
Jake wrote:A steampunk setting, for example, is particularly interesting because it's notably different from the world we live in.
Uh so every fantasy story ever automatically starts with a hook because they are fantasy stories?

User avatar
N0UGHTS
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#11 Post by N0UGHTS » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:20 pm

Nicol Armarfi wrote:
Jake wrote:A steampunk setting, for example, is particularly interesting because it's notably different from the world we live in.
Uh so every fantasy story ever automatically starts with a hook because they are fantasy stories?
Tracy Culleton wrote:Although arousing your reader's curiosity is the most popular literary hook, if the quality of writing is good enough that can act as its own literary hook. Likewise, an engaging character or an intriguing setting can pull the reader in. But these are harder to carry off - you might be better off posing the question as to why that engaging character has found himself in that intriguing setting, and cover all bases.
According to Tracy Culleton, yeah.
World Community Grid
"Thanksgiving is a day for Americans to remember that family is what really matters.
"The day after Thanksgiving is when Americans forget that and go shopping." —Jon Stewart
Thank you for playing Alter Ego. You have died.

User avatar
Jake
Support Hero
Posts: 3826
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:28 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#12 Post by Jake » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:22 pm

OK. It's late, so I shall be blunt and brief. Also I still think you're an antagonistic idiot, so I might stray into 'downright insulting' at points. I think you deserve it, frankly.
A22 is too lazy to log in wrote: You think a guy complaining about tiny things his wife does, or obsessing over the construction of things, is a hook?
Put up or shut up. Give us some actual concrete examples of your definition, or you're just blowing hot air.

Alternate response:

Well done for totally missing the point.

A22 is too lazy to log in wrote: Never did I say it was well written. Nice one, jumping the gun like that. And I'm the arrogant one?
If it's not well-written, then it's totally irrelevant as an example in a discussion about good writing, since it's pretty obvious that no single trait of bad writing is always going to be bad in every situation. So if you're not presenting it as a counter-example, what the hell were you trying to do?
A22 is too lazy to log in wrote: I never said that hooks should be disregarded entirely, did I?
Actually, you did give this impression in more or less every single post you've made on the subject. Try learning to communicate better so that we don't have these 'misunderstandings'.
A22 is too lazy to log in wrote: If you agree the concept, too, can be a hook, then why are you saying that her game, of the length of which you do not know, and the plot of which you do not know, and the storytelling method of which you do not know, is devoid of anything interesting?
And you have the sheer gall to accuse me of not reading your posts properly?

She posted a demo. I was very sure to be clear I was talking about that demo.

Moron.




Nicol Armarfi wrote: Your point here is that there is nothing in the beginning which catches interest, thus needing something else to hook them. This completely goes against your previous point saying that a story does not even need to start with a hook.
Oh, great, we're back to totally making things up/misrepresenting again. How do you expect people to take you seriously and not presume you're a troll when you do things like that?
Nicol Armarfi wrote: Uh so every fantasy story ever automatically starts with a hook because they are fantasy stories?
It's not a big hook, but yes? There are readers who especially like fantasy fiction. A story being in a fantasy setting is, therefore, a hook for the interest of those readers. The fact that you frame it incredulously suggests that even after pages of discussion you still have no idea what we're talking about when we say 'hook'.
Server error: user 'Jake' not found

User avatar
Nicol Armarfi
Regular
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:03 am
Completed: Katawa Shoujo, The Circular Gate, Broken Sky
Projects: Katawa Shoujo, The Circular Gate, Driftwood, Escape from Puzzlegate
Organization: 4LS
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#13 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:37 pm

Does that mean anything? I've certainly never heard of Tracy Culleton, let alone anything that makes her credible in anyway. Searching for her on Wikipedia yields an error page, Google web search leads to only her personally website and a few links to buy her novels (for low prices), and Googling for any of her four books return similarly titled books by completely different authors.. One of her four books was also just a cook book for vegetarian meals. I fail to see how one could believe she is a solid, credible author of whom you could freely quote in an argument.

Edit: this was in response to N0UGHT's post, not the post above.
Last edited by Nicol Armarfi on Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A22 is too lazy to log in

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#14 Post by A22 is too lazy to log in » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:39 pm

>OK. It's late, so I shall be blunt and brief. Also I still think you're an antagonistic idiot, so I might stray into 'downright insulting' at points. I think you deserve it, frankly.

"Sup you disagree so you are an antagonistic idiot." Nice civility there.

>Put up or shut up. Give us some actual concrete examples of your definition, or you're just blowing hot air.

>Alternate response:

>Well done for totally missing the point.

Go on. How did I totally miss the point? I backed up what I said by pointing out why your examples are flawed, and instead of defending them you just go "NO U LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN DO BETTER." I could sit here and write out three examples of a hook, but I have maintained that I think that having a hook in the first few paragraphs of a story = stupid. Maybe there are cases in which it works well, but for the most part it's unnecessary and I'm not going to type out 3-4 paragraphs because I know you will just ignore it, as you do with all my other, perfectly valid, points.

>If it's not well-written, then it's totally irrelevant as an example in a discussion about good writing, since it's pretty obvious that no single trait of bad writing is always going to be bad in every situation. So if you're not presenting it as a counter-example, what the hell were you trying to do?

It's kinda funny. I mention the book as an example, and you don't even see the example and just jump on the book itself, saying it is crap. Then, when I say I never said it was good, you think I am saying that I think the book is shit and therefore irrelevant. Maybe if you had read the book, or even my post, you would understand what I was "trying to do" and did.

>Actually, you did give this impression in more or less every single post you've made on the subject. Try learning to communicate better so that we don't have these 'misunderstandings'.

It was you who misunderstood me. Never have I seen a post that said so much yet also said so little at the same time. You're also the one being antagonistic here, far more than I was in any post in this thread.

>And you have the sheer gall to accuse me of not reading your posts properly?

>She posted a demo. I was very sure to be clear I was talking about that demo.

Tell me, what puts you above debate? Is it because you have 1700 posts, or because you write at least a page of words in each post that translate to quite little?

She posted a demo, yes. By your own admission, that demo was short. The short demo to a game of which the length of which you do not know.

>Moron.

Yes, very mature.

>Oh, great, we're back to totally making things up/misrepresenting again. How do you expect people to take you seriously and not presume you're a troll when you do things like that?

Sorry, but Nicol is quite right.

This is what you have said:

>I also absolutely don't think that it's always lame and stupid to have an obvious hook in the opening paragraphs, and it's pretty narrow-minded to presume that it is just because you've seen some bad examples of that. If you're talking about short stories, for instance, then it should be in the opening paragraphs, simply because short stories are... y'know, short.

>Mikan's game, on the other hand, doesn't (at least in that short demo, from what I recall) demonstrate a particularly unique setting or particularly unique characters. The notable information presented goes something like

olololololol

>It's not a big hook, but yes? There are readers who especially like fantasy fiction. A story being in a fantasy setting is, therefore, a hook for the interest of those readers. The fact that you frame it incredulously suggests that even after pages of discussion you still have no idea what we're talking about when we say 'hook'.

The concept of a school that is mostly girls and was up until that year an all girls' school is a hook, right? It's not a big hook, but it is a hook, yes? There are readers who especially like school life VNs, and a story being in a fantasy setting is, therefore, a hook for the interest of those readers.

User avatar
Wintermoon
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 701
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 3:41 pm
Contact:

Re: THE FIRST ARGUMENT EVER

#15 Post by Wintermoon » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:15 pm

Nicol Armarfi wrote:Uh so every fantasy story ever automatically starts with a hook because they are fantasy stories?
Not every fantasy story has an interesting setting, and not every fantasy introduces the interesting parts of the setting at the start. If a fantasy story starts with an interesting piece of information about the setting, then yes, that's a hook.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]