Boring Characters...?

[Ikka]

I've downloaded a lot of the VNs you guys made here! They're really cool, and the artwork is pretty neat! There's only one thing that I have to admit -- sometimes, the cast of the characters are really boring and predictable.

I'm not saying I hat your characters or anything, it's just that, it's so... normal? They're very interesting, but I've seen the same personalities like that over, and over again in many VNs...

For girls, there are tsunderes, shy people, active jocks, silent girl... Ah! I've seen them all the time and it gets sooo boring to the point that you can predict their future actions even if you play for just a short time!

For guys, there's the violent and bloody people who are actually kind, a charming prince character, a devilish guy who likes to tease, or maybe a silent guy or a calm megane.

Is it me, or is it that these kind of characters are getting really boring? Hmm, I do think somebody needs to cook up something different and unpredictable. Even a little change will do~~

What do you guys think?

[Vatina]

It's true that there are certain cliches for character types that tend to be used in VN's. And yeah, it does get boring pretty fast.... so I can see where you're coming from.

[sake-bento]

I'm not really sure if the "boring" is coming from the fact that these characters have been done before, or the fact that (in my opinion) you just don't get enough time with them. I feel like a lot of VNs here are pretty short, so I don't get to know a character or the depth of the character as well as I'd like to. Stereotypes are fine as long as you use them correctly and don't rely on the stereotype itself to drive the character.

[IceD]

You're propably right, but it's just the fact that most of character portraits evole from constant group of stereotypes. They are mostly original with their looks, but somehow it comes to dissapointment when we're talking about their personalities though i don't think it's of a much concern now, because there are plenty of people who accustomed to this and they quite like it (it's also easier for the creators to come up with their character concepts).

Because we are indies and do this as our hobby and mostly for free, using little time we have we propably won't take a different path, especially when mainstream companies don't take this as a big concern (and we are somewhat copying them). It's not of a big problem now, because it's mostly how the anime/manga is build up, although I think whole scene is entering some kind of a crisis now - it's hard to come up with something new, brilliant and interesting and most of the best ideas have been milked up to much, leaving you with nothing to do. So you have the right to be bored and so do we

If we're talikng about this certain type of characters I think the problem lies in the way how creators introduce them - they're too much straightforward and and mostly don't change even a bit throughout the story. Writers should focus on more complicated personalities, but it's also a matter of a good material for a story and it's the place where bigger problem arises, because most of projects seem to copy checked ideas instead of creating something fresh. People don't want to experiment too much because they're afraid they won't come up with something good and screw up the job or the story will become to hard to understand or too complicated, so they come up with your another generic school romance dating sim and we see another panthenon of similiar characters we see everywhere else. I won't argue about this, because it's just a matter how well the writer/author can grasp things up (writing, sense of everything important, addiction - it's also significant for people who will read it), but most of the stories are too generic and charaters are to shallow. It's obvious that indie stuff in overall is weaker than most of the mainstream productions, especially here so we won't see anything which could arise for something big, only things that might be at most quite good. There are only a few titles from here and few more in whole indie VN scene which are really something with their interesting and well-designed characters. The fact I can count them on my fingers makes everything seem even more deepresing

But I won't argue about it. It's just the fact how everything is now. Of course, we are able to change this

[dstarsboy]

I, actually, absolutely love these stereotypical characters! Love them!

I have only played maybe a dozen VNs, but I have to admit that what hooked me and gave me the most "can't-put-this-game-down-what-happens-next-feeling" when I first started playing is, in fact, these stereotypical characters.

In conclusion, if you are making a game for hardcore "I-play-5-VNs-per-day-and-unlock-every-ending" enthusiasts, then try your best to break the mold but if you're making a game for the other 99.9% of the population to enjoy, keep with what works.

[Koveras]

I understand your concern, Ikka, but I want to object to your argumentation a little...

Before such thing as a cliche, there's a much broader thing call trope. A trope is to storytelling what a design pattern is to programming. It is a recurring plot element or character type/trait that is used because it works. It must not work universally but if it does for a certain genre (like harem romance, which most released VNs, sadly IMO, fall into), it will be used.

You may ask what's the fun of writing characters of the archetypes that have been used for ages. Well, it's the same question as what's the fun of raising a kid who superfluously will be just like any other kid around him. ^^ Yet for the parents, their child is unique. For the author, their characters are unique. Even the most cliched ones.

So why should we play their games with boring characters? As a matter of fact, we don't have to. However, we do play anything that moves - hoping to find the exact collection of tropes we consider a perfect story. Sometimes, we do. Most of the times, it never happens. And if that's the case, we start creating our own games, for the others to wonder what was the point of writing such cliched stuff in the first place...

Sorry if I'm rambling. ^^;

[Coatl]

Honestly, I hold a neutral perspective because we cannot really get away with stereotypes but at the same time, there's often a lack of originality with characters, even stereotypical characters.

These are usually the type of girls in VN, at least from the ones I read. The Assertive/ Tomboy. The shy/ quiet type. The Rich Girl. the Childhood Best Friend. And the new girl.

I don't mind these stereotypes because it sets variety in choice, but They can become rather shallow. Even during romantic moments, they become just dialogue with hardly any personality.

I think what makes or break a character is interaction and breaking molds. If you childhood best friend is just absent minded for the entire game and get's butt hurt rather easily, that character has to have or do something that makes you say. "oh damn I did not see that coming!"

As for the guys, I realized in a few of my VN's that they're a bit insensitive, harshly calling someone an idiot in their face without miraculously causing hostility between him and the other characters. They're often a bit absent minded as well, and somewhat oblivious.

I kinda consider myself, different from the usual VN reader or Anime watcher, because even though I'm a bit of a geek at heart, I often have speaking habits influenced by my Mexican Cousins land from being in the Bay Area (Northern California for those who don't know) so when I create a main character, I can make him say "Dude, that is hella tight!" in the heat of the moment instead of the usual "W-W-Whoa!"

I personally think that the average generic looking VNs are simply design the way they are because the writers usually specific generic traits and often tries to apply them to characters, but I think that to be more successful as a character writer is by asking yourself, "How would I honestly react to this?" "Would I think this but say or do this instead" "What would my friend think"

This being a rather big forum, I think writer's should have the confidence to start topics that ask how you would design this character even if it's based on a stereotype.

[gekiganwing]

Are stereotypical characters beneficial, or do they bore the reader/player? Will a tried-and-true chara type cause the player to say "been there, seen that"? That's a good question. A while ago, I was about to start a topic on this very question, but I couldn't decide what my answer would be...

Maybe the question should be: what is *not* a stereotype? That's also tricky to answer. Fictional characters that I consider innovative, or even unprecedented, may in fact be common.

Another less messy question could be: in fiction, what stereotypes are acceptable? And what ones should be discarded? TVTropes has an article discussing common stereotypes in all kinds of media here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Stereotype If you're interested in ones which defy expectations, then click the "More Than Meets the Eye" link.

My overall statement here is "I'm not sure if I like stereotypical characters or not." Sorry if you wanted more...

An aside: the Chocoholic has some otome game stereotypes here: http://phoenixrose.wordpress.com/2008/1 ... tome-games

[Jo'ogn]

One should not forget, that writing interesting and what's more coherent stories with complex 'alive' charatcers is quite a task and challenge. Not everybody has a) the creativity and b) the 'foresight' and c) the discipline and d) maybe not even the chance (e.g. money contraints, other ppl messing with your ideas) to write the way they want to.

I believe the main issue is, that in these days most of us have already seen "too much". Some watch more movies in a week than I might have watched in an entire year back some 25 years ago as a child. Computers have accelerated our rate of consuming information enormously.


In 1995 with my Atari ST I had hard times filling a 44MB hardrive. Today 44MB are 'only' 20 Photos of my 6MP camera and though I don't take that much photos I shot over 2.500 in 4 years. Some ppl have more than 25.000 pieces of music on their drives. Some 100 manga, dozens of anime shows on their shelves, Gigabyte of porn collections...

Characters, or ppl are not that different if you just shape them by using general traits, or stereotypes. What makes a certain character 'unique' is how they develop over time in a game, or story.

In my "White Feathers" RP with Darkling (who wrote some "Kana ~imouto" fan-fics) we introduced minor characters to go along with the daily life of our main characters. Most of them started out as sterotypical anime characters. Sporty tomboy girl, rich girl as class president, nerdy girl as Nanoka's friend in spe, average boy as class mate...

However over time and through their interactions they naturally changed, developed and got more depths. I couldn't keep Yukio 'average', even though it was his initial "running gag phrase". It was impossible to have him reflecting any kind of interests, or emotions if he was merely 'average'. Now he's become part of the more involved minor characters.

[Deji]

Normal people in normal, routine situations tend to be pretty plain and boring to watch as well.
I think the problem doesn't lie in the characters themselves, but in the situations they're presented with. IMO what makes a character, or a person, interesting, is how they react to different situations, what do they do to achieve their goals, to solve their problems and overcome their flaws, and how do they grow as they face all this.

I believe stereotypes and archetypes are a good starting point to define how a character should act, especially if you're not especially creative or don't know a lot of different people and just don't want to make all your characters look like clones of you with slight variations. That said, it's just a starting point.

[Wintermoon]

I think a lot of what makes characters interesting isn't their differences, but their essential sameness. We care about characters because we relate to them, because they experience the same fear and pain and joy and anger that we all do.

Characters are boring when they're presented as a bunch of superficial character traits with no depth. Choosing a less stereotypical set of character traits isn't going to make a superficial character any more interesting.

[Coatl]

I think a lot of what makes characters interesting isn't their differences, but their essential sameness. We care about characters because we relate to them, because they experience the same fear and pain and joy and anger that we all do.

Characters are boring when they're presented as a bunch of superficial character traits with no depth. Choosing a less stereotypical set of character traits isn't going to make a superficial character any more interesting.

I can agree with that. I rewatched a few Superman movies, and watching them, I realized I cannot relate to superman because he doesn't seem like the type to relate to, he's just a dude who a bit godly flying around, in facti got bored watching him. But I can relate to Neo or Spiderman because they are people who I can relate to if I got thrusted in the situations that they find themselves in.

i also think that a person who makes you wonder, "why is he/she like this?" is a great magnet of interest because why do you think people keep watching Saw if they hate blood and guts? Because the mystery of the Jigsaw Killer and who he is is a very interesting one.

[Jo'ogn]

But I can relate to Neo or Spiderman because they are people who I can relate to ... i also think that a person who makes you wonder, "why is he/she like this?" is a great magnet of interest

This is one of the magics of Japanese story telling. i was wondering why Hollywood script-writing is considerably boring and hard to relate to. It is usually forgotten the moment I left the cinema.

While Japanese often focus on emotions, Westerners (USA) focus on action. The hero is usually some kind of cop, often enough retired, or a veteran, in order to give him some 'psyche-rattling' history. There is a simple bad guy target and there goes the battle between "good and evil".

In Japanese stories it's often about young and quite average ppl, to whom happens sth out of the ordenary. I read a manga recently that is nothing but a love story with instant sex... But the girl is a ghost - so it allows for sth out of the ordenary.

Due to the average 'normal' nature of the protagonist in anime it is easy to relate to him, or her. Like reading a horoscope, it sort of always fits to anybody. It is neither 100% wrong, nor 100% right.


I was wondering if it would be desireable to be able to customise the girls/boys to meet/date in a game?! However while it might sound interesting to set the traits for the girls, it will likely defeat the desire for the unpredictable.

While humans tend to strive for 'no problems in life' - at least in what they are saying, what many keep doing is, they create lots of problems in their life. So there is a need for the unknown, for the challenge, for the surprise.

I prefer writing interactive roleplays over the total 'control' of writing my own stories alone, because, another player introduces the element of surprise and even uncomfortable challenges.

[IceD]

Normal people in normal, routine situations tend to be pretty plain and boring to watch as well.
I think the problem doesn't lie in the characters themselves, but in the situations they're presented with. IMO what makes a character, or a person, interesting, is how they react to different situations, what do they do to achieve their goals, to solve their problems and overcome their flaws, and how do they grow as they face all this.

I believe stereotypes and archetypes are a good starting point to define how a character should act, especially if you're not especially creative or don't know a lot of different people and just don't want to make all your characters look like clones of you with slight variations. That said, it's just a starting point.

Maybe that's how it should be? Artists and writers like some of us should focus more on the inner depth of characters. Stereotypes should be only something to start with it, thats why I also agree with this. I know it's unnavoidable to look upon certain characters the other way, as Jo'ogn said, we've seen to much stuff and mark them with general traits right from begining. Creators somehow might be a little dissapointed seeing their work marked like "this character fall upon this stereotype and because of this I consider him/her boring" etc, I've seen this many times, but as creators we shouldn't look upon our work like this, let people judge it like they want. Propably, good charater needs a good story so it's a matter of whole.

• So propably, this would be a most considerable short formula for quite a charater:
• beeing as "normal" in general as we are so we might relate to him in some way
• having some unusal traits or playing an interesting role or just letting him be an average guy/gal
• taking a part in an unusual and astounding story or a tale with elements like this

This is getting really complicated Correct me, if I'm wrong.

As for me, the times for superheroes have ended really a long time ago. Kids might dream of it, but when we start to face real life, this dream dissapears really quickly and does not seem interesting anymore. Instead of those I really appreciate "normal" characters. Saiga or Kagura from Speed Grapher, Jin and Mugen from Samurai Champloo - they're all normal except there's always something strange about them. Those elements, nonetheless they are a personal desire coming true in form of a supernatural power or being just incredible skilled with swordmanship and hidden badass at the same time might be it.

[Coatl]

This is one of the magics of Japanese story telling. i was wondering why Hollywood script-writing is considerably boring and hard to relate to. It is usually forgotten the moment I left the cinema.

While Japanese often focus on emotions, Westerners (USA) focus on action. The hero is usually some kind of cop, often enough retired, or a veteran, in order to give him some 'psyche-rattling' history. There is a simple bad guy target and there goes the battle between "good and evil".

In Japanese stories it's often about young and quite average ppl, to whom happens sth out of the ordenary. I read a manga recently that is nothing but a love story with instant sex... But the girl is a ghost - so it allows for sth out of the ordenary

I can agree however I've actually had many moments where I get frustrated at character due to the fact that under ordinary circumstances certain things could have blown over rather easily. Or often I see events in a story that make me say, "Dude get over with it, it's not that complicated!" So often times, I create characters that are just sub-characters (or supporting characters) who can do that once in while.

On a different note, I wanted to talk about a few archetypes that I see too often but I kinda wish their that their trait would be further explored.
This week's trait:
The Prude and the Pervert. How can you relate? Well many times you'll see pervs who like to see whatever pervs like but you only see them in a rather negative (or comic) light. Often times they're never explained why they act upon instinct and whether or not they know what their doing. I think one of the few pervs to explain their actions in a series, is Muroku from InuYasha. He actually explains it many ways in both the main series and the games.

As for the prude, the prude can often be the main character such as Ichigo from Bleach. Often times they will make a big deal off of showing a bit of skin and they also throw a fit at anyone who show rather perverted traits. Ho can you relate well mopst of my friends (In fact a huge percentage of my friends) were prudish, even to the point of not admitting doing rather normal things like thinking a girl walking by is pretty (or pretty hot). But again there is never really a full explaination why someone is like that.

So my friends, if you ever have characters like this, make a short segment of them explaining why they are like this or even show them going from one extreme to another. Hell you can even have the pervert characters defending themselves by having them rightuously state that they are not overly perverty the same way you can have the prude state rather defensively that that he/she can like the opposite gender.