What annoys you in visual novels?

[Poketto Kunoichi]

In your opinion, what annoys you in visual novels?

I'm new to these things, so I haven't encountered something so much I'm annoyed with it. Maybe being surrounded by tons of girls waiting for you to do, but that's the point of H games, right?

[sake-bento]

Here are a couple sweeping generalizations. Remember that for every rule there is an exception, and for every thing that "annoys" me, there's likely someone who's done it in such a way that I actually enjoyed it.

-"Time passed..."
I think Brian Regan sums this one up pretty well for me.

-Deus ex Machina
I want my ending to make sense, and I don't want to be blindsided by a solution that seems to be conveniently airdropped in. If I had known a hurricane would destroy the villain's castle, I wouldn't have bothered to level up. I played a mystery game once with three suspects. For hours, I tried to deduce which one of these seemingly good people was the killer. In the end, it wasn't any of them, but rather an evil drug dealer who appeared out of nowhere and attacked me because I was investigating the murder. Huh? Surprise endings are good. Surprise endings that aren't logical are less good.

-Bad Grammar and Spelling
I can forgive a typo here or there, and even the occasional misuse of a homophone. But too many spelling or grammar mistakes are a huge turn-off for me.

-Fanservice
Panty shots, shower scenes, being caught undressing, accidental groping, etc. Obviously not everyone is opposed to this, but I find it pointless, humorless, and a little bit insulting. If you can get through the scene without having to see someone's underwear, then please do.

[killdream]

-Fanservice
Panty shots, shower scenes, being caught undressing, accidental groping, etc. Obviously not everyone is opposed to this, but I find it pointless, humorless, and a little bit insulting. If you can get through the scene without having to see someone's underwear, then please do.

this.

And also, way-too-much sex centered stories, so many grammar/spelling errors, uninteresting stories, empty or way-too-steryoptical characters, etc, etc, etc.

[MaiMai]

-Fanservice
Panty shots, shower scenes, being caught undressing, accidental groping, etc. Obviously not everyone is opposed to this, but I find it pointless, humorless, and a little bit insulting. If you can get through the scene without having to see someone's underwear, then please do.

this.

And also, way-too-much sex centered stories, so many grammar/spelling errors, uninteresting stories, empty or way-too-steryoptical characters, etc, etc, etc.

Thirded. I can enjoy VNs like Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime and Kagetsu Tohya WITHOUT the fanservice. (Considering I wanted to stab my eyes out during certain scenes of Kagetsu Tohya even WITH the adult content locked.) Caught undressing isn't really a problem for me, but meh. :/

Also, I dislike VNs that don't really explain things even though there's lots of explaining. (EG. Ballad of an Evening Butterfly. I am so confused.) I don't mind a story being vague as long as it's written well.

[Ellie]

Overusage of the first person narrative. I know it's hard, but...I think there's some scenes where you could explain what's going on through visuals not use the protagonist's thoughts. That's the visual part of the visual novel.

Like if you're showing a cg; why do you need to write:
"Her hand gripped mine tightly, and she looked down, embarrassed; and didn't say a word. I stood there silently, understanding the gravity of what this took from her..."

[Vatina]

-Fanservice
Panty shots, shower scenes, being caught undressing, accidental groping, etc. Obviously not everyone is opposed to this, but I find it pointless, humorless, and a little bit insulting. If you can get through the scene without having to see someone's underwear, then please do.

this.

And also, way-too-much sex centered stories, so many grammar/spelling errors, uninteresting stories, empty or way-too-steryoptical characters, etc, etc, etc.

Thirded.

Fourth'ed (is that a word? )

And all the girls swooning over the main guy for no real apparent reason.

[Poketto Kunoichi]

Let me add something else. Stereotypical (or a better term I don't know of) characters.

I don't want to read something with the same old tsundere, shrinking violet, pervert dude, kickbutt chick kind of characters. It's fine to be quick-tempered, it's fine to be shy, it's fine to be violent, just don't make it fit with the stereotype.

Also, when girls can punch guys into the sky all the time (only seen it in anime, though) but the guy does not do crap. I don't find girl abusing guy humor funny (Zero no Tsukaima, the anime anyway. Not sure about the visual novel.). It does exist and it shouldn't be treated as something to laugh at.

[MaiMai]

Also, when girls can punch guys into the sky all the time (only seen it in anime, though) but the guy does not do crap. I don't find girl abusing guy humor funny (Zero no Tsukaima, the anime anyway. Not sure about the visual novel.). It does exist and it shouldn't be treated as something to laugh at.

I don't mind comedic violence, (after all, I grew up on Tom and Jerry and Looney Toons) but I'd have to agree with you about Zero no Tsukaima. That series... Yeah Talk about overboard.

[gekiganwing]

The VNs that I *like* tend to be cute and romantic. If there's an adventure going on, or danger (to balance out slice of life?), then that's definitely a plus.

I'm okay with thoughtful or sad games, but I prefer them with some sweet and light elements. If it sounds like a game will be one hundred percent GRIMDARK, or mindbendingly complex, then I'll lose interest.

Fanservice versus plot: too much of one can be awkward. If a game is one big excuse for fanservice, then it's just a guilty pleasure. But a huge emphasis on plot can be bad *if* it isn't compelling, or if the story is way too serious.

I have years of experience with mainstream games, so I'm glad if a visual novel has a few gaming elements. I won't demand that every game should be the next Tokimemo or Sakura Wars. But if gameplay fits well with your story (or vice versa), I'll be glad. I might hesitate if there's a puzzle with no hints, or if the challenge level is "Persona 4 on Hard mode."

I don't want to read something with the same old tsundere, shrinking violet, pervert dude, kickbutt chick kind of characters. It's fine to be quick-tempered, it's fine to be shy, it's fine to be violent, just don't make it fit with the stereotype.

That's where deconstruction and reconstruction can be useful storytelling tools. Let's say you're tired of stories in which a bland loser guy, through sheer coincidence, has the chance to hook up with 1) an energetic but easily angered girl, 2) a moeblob without much ambition, and 3) a flat girl with an odd sense of humor. [Can you name the professionally translated H game that I just described?]

How to deconstruct the above idea: consider adding more realism. Ask "what sort of people are these characters?" See this discussion at TVTropes for more thoughts: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... uctedTrope

Reconstruction is what happens next: start the genre again, only avoid a few of the major problems. Yeah, TVTropes has an article on that too.

[chronoluminaire]

Let's say you're tired of stories in which a bland loser guy, through sheer coincidence, has the chance to hook up with 1) an energetic but easily angered girl, 2) a moeblob without much ambition, and 3) a flat girl with an odd sense of humor. [Can you name the professionally translated H game that I just described?]

I suspect it's Heart de Roommate, though I think there's probably a few others that'd fit that, particularly if those are only 3 of the game's 6+ girls...

I find overdone thwackage-by-tsunderekko very irritating, and dislike stereotypical characters if there's nothing to them but the stereotype. But I do like tsunderekko (for example) when they're done well, believably, and have more to them than just being tsundere. When they go beyond a stereotype to a rounded character, in other words. Particularly if (to continue the TVTropes linkage) there's Hidden Depths or other forms of MoreThanMeetsTheEye.

[musical74]

Here's my list of things that annoy me regarding VNS

First and foremost - bad spelling and grammar. I can forgive an occasional typo here and there - more so if there's around 20,000 words! But if in the intro there are GLARING spelling mistakes...proofread beforehand!

Stereotypical characters that are there simply BECAUSE they are stereotypical irritates me too...by that I mean they don't do anything outside of the stereotype. The perverted guy is a pervert, the shy girl is shy, etc...and they seem to have no personality beyond that. I like my VNs with personality!

Another one that annoys me is the *OK how do all these people meet, or if they have already met, what's the backstory for them?* REALLY annoying when it's *main character apparently knows this person but there's no way to know HOW because there's no backstory* Hey, if the VN's a hentai, I don't expect much story, but I still want SOME kind of story...

Those are my big three annoyances with VNs.

[pinkmouse]

So reading through the replies, basically everyone objects to the kind of issues that make for poor storytelling in other media too.

Lack of proofreading that comes across as laziness or lack of respect for the reader; the lack of thought that produces shallow stereotyping; lack of plotting that ends up with either muddled plots or having to hastily stitch things together at the end via coincidence or extra, "superhuman" characters.

But is there anything that the structure of a VN is particularly prone to that annoys you? For example in interactive fiction, locations and physical objects are fairly straightforward to implement, but living characters are much, much harder. Consequently so many IF games have been designed to take place in deserted landscapes (ruined or abandoned cities, desolate landscapes, isolated research stations etc.) that fans notice it and refer to it as "abandonitis".

Having played a few VN games, I'm still getting used to the idea of the re-use of character sprites. They're difficult and time-consuming to produce, so re-using them makes sense. But having very different locations within the same game would make it harder to re-use a character sprite, so do you think that VN design tends to over-favor self-contained, homogeneous locations like schools?

What about blind choices? Getting stuck? Unclear consequences of choices? Do these bother you, or is it just part of the territory?

Someone mentioned redundancy: having the text recapitulate what an image is showing. How do you use text and images together? Any tips, or horrendous examples to avoid? Typical "first time VN author" mistakes?

[dizzcity]

But is there anything that the structure of a VN is particularly prone to that annoys you? For example in interactive fiction, locations and physical objects are fairly straightforward to implement, but living characters are much, much harder. Consequently so many IF games have been designed to take place in deserted landscapes (ruined or abandoned cities, desolate landscapes, isolated research stations etc.) that fans notice it and refer to it as "abandonitis".

Having played a few VN games, I'm still getting used to the idea of the re-use of character sprites. They're difficult and time-consuming to produce, so re-using them makes sense. But having very different locations within the same game would make it harder to re-use a character sprite, so do you think that VN design tends to over-favor self-contained, homogeneous locations like schools?

Actually, yes. I think VNs also suffer from the same sort of abandonitis you see in IF stories, and it's due to the same problem. It is simply more difficult and time-consuming to create a strong, living environment with an ensemble of background characters that are not necessarily vital to the plot. Or rather, perhaps it's better to say that the marginal utility of those characters doesn't justify the production cost to include them. Which is why you see so many VNs with a relatively limited cast and almost no background characters. It is possible to create a project aimed at subverting this trope, but it would be either hideously expensive to make (every minor character has their own story and artwork), or you would need a separation between the elements of the VN (which is what I'm experimenting with), or you would need a different type of story or narrative technique that would work better (which I don't think we've found just yet).

And yes, I'm sick of sterile, self-contained locations. Give me variety in space-time. Make your characters age. Make them go back in time. Make them move out of the country (and FOLLOW them there!). Make them bounce back and forth between two dimensions. Make them travel to different planets. Make them explore a variety of social contexts and situations. Starlit Sky did this very well, and I enjoyed it because of that.

What about blind choices? Getting stuck? Unclear consequences of choices? Do these bother you, or is it just part of the territory?

Interestingly enough, I was starting to think about this topic when you mentioned it. I don't get annoyed so much as I get weary when playing certain VNs, because I can't always relate the choices I make to the ends I want, and I don't want to play through everything again to brute-force my way to all the different ends. It's actually a complex equation with three factors you have to juggle: Replayability, Interactivity, and Depth. So far, from what I've seen, you have to sacrifice one of the factors to achieve the other two - if you want high interactivity (lots of choices) and high replayability, you cut out the depth of the story you can tell... that gives you your typical dating sim. If you want a very deep story with lots of interactive choice, your story would be wearying to replay over and over again to get all the endings... that's what happens to our very long VNs. And well, if you want depth and high replayability, you generally have to make do with less interactivity (a lower number of choices)... your short-haul, two-choice-menus VNs or even KNs. It's a deadlock that I'm trying to figure out how to break, because it irks me both as a creator and as a consumer.

Personally, I think you've put your finger on it - blind choices or unclear consequences of choices in VNs is what's causing part of this problem. If there was a way for the player to clearly identify the goal he or she is aiming for at the end of the VN, and know both his current status as well as the effect every choice will have on his progress towards the goal, I think we would have broken through to the next level of VNs and dating-sim games. I personally don't really like "mystery choices" in VNs. The consequences of each choice should be explained to me before I make the choice, and the consequences of each choice should be meaningful in relation to the goal I want to achieve. You want to structure the player's experience like this:

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Goal (introduced at the beginning) --> Consequence (that moves me closer to the goal) --> Choice (I should make to achieve the desired consequence)

But in most amateur VNs, I see the opposite happening:

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Choice (with not much context to judge the consequence) --> Consequence (which you may not know how to relate to the goal) --> Goal (which you will find out at the end)

If you get this part clear, you should be able to create deeper stories, while still retaining high interactivity and replayability. The best example of this I've seen in our community is the last choice of Mr. E's Pygmalion story. Commercially, I think True Tears does this very well, and so does Heileen, to some extent. They're all still not perfect, but it's getting there slowly.

I admit, though, that this is a personal preference. There may be some people who actually like the whole discovery and frustration experience when struggling to get all the endings.

-Dizzy-

[azureXtwilight]

-Fanservice
Panty shots, shower scenes, being caught undressing, accidental groping, etc. Obviously not everyone is opposed to this, but I find it pointless, humorless, and a little bit insulting. If you can get through the scene without having to see someone's underwear, then please do.

Thirded.

Umm, me too.

And perverts, ugh, I can't stand them.

[mugenjohncel]

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