Archive Site Update Ideas

[PyTom]

I found that whenever a site gets more dynamic, there's just so much more work around it - and often leads to closure.

The design I have planned for the site should minimize the work needed to maintain the site. Using a technique similar to the one I use for b.us, I should actually be able to reduce the amount of work needed to add a game to the site... The idea is to have one master set of files from which the entire site is generated.

Right now, we have to update in at least 4 places when a new game is added... The index at the top of the game page, the new entry on the game page, the Newly Added bar at the top of the site, and the what's new list on the front page.

With the new design, we'll just have the entry and the what's new entry... the other two components will be automatic.

There's also the problem that there's getting to be too many games to comfortably navigate. Generating the site should help this to some extent, as it would let us break the games up into categories, perhaps on multiple axes.

One axes could be the type of game (bishoujo, bishonen, yuri, yaoi)... Another could be the age rating... all, 16+, 18+.... Also the game type (VN, DS, RPG) would probably be another axis.

Of course, we'd always have the "one big list" approach, for those who want it.

The only work needed to maintain this would be the work needed to classify new games, which is incrementally very small.

Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

[mikey]

There's also the problem that there's getting to be too many games to comfortably navigate

^_^ who would have thought that the community will have THIS type of problem. It's good to see. You could add Reconstruction to the games in the process - I think Dre mentioned it was okay with him.

I think the categories will make sense, one thing for discussion can be is it ren'ai or not? I use the full/half/no heart on my pages, but I'm currently reconsidering some of my games, Milk Swim and Kaori, they are IMO maybe half-ren'ai...? And Reconstruction is also not (yet) about ren'ai..., in WIRTW I'd also say the main theme is much more Selena herself than her love... Then again, not every VN must be a ren'ai game, so I'll just leave this here as food for thought.

Something to discuss would also be the mentioned microprojects. Do they get a separate page, will they be accepted and so on...

Also, some of the newer Sim Dates have shown better writing, although it's hard to say whether the mere fact that you score points to get a girl qualifies as ren'ai - in other words whether you have to have some ren'ai text or not.

A third area is copyrighted material games (understandably not to be included), anyway - Sango was accepted by download.com, so maybe it's time to hit the light grey zone? JK, you do as you like, but M3 is up for grabs anytime you change your policy.

Last and maybe my first REAL suggestion would be bigger screenshots. Maybe even more than one - thumbnail system or anything else. So there's a better idea about the game as such. (And yes I'm sticking with the unfriendly image size on my page myself ^_^ - ambivalence...)

[bookie]

Might I suggest that the link to the forums on the front page send users to the index of the forum and not the thread where you're discussing the creation of the site? That thread has become a little obscelete I think, and I still use that link to get to the forum so I don't have to memorize the url. XD

[rioka]

Might I suggest that the link to the forums on the front page send users to the index of the forum and not the thread where you're discussing the creation of the site? That thread has become a little obscelete I think, and I still use that link to get to the forum so I don't have to memorize the url. XD

If PyTom hasn't changed it already, I'll change it asap. I finally have time to work on the archives on a regular basis again. =) That being said, there was a discussion in the the original Archive thread about linking demo's, commercial (read: indie games), etc at the site. I have the following to be listed in a new page:

1. Summer Schoolgirls
2. Together Forever
3. Akari's Story
4. Namiki's Story
5. Town Heat
6. Untouched
7. Akane-chan Games (forgot their names plus the site is being redone...)
8. Clear Sky... (site is down though...)
---------------
9. Sango!
10. Marry Me Misato

Anything I missed?

[mikey]

Akari, Namiki..:
My encyclopedia sort of shows my views on this subject - these should have their own category "text games" and Amatire should also be moved there.

Sango, M3:
I must point out that I think Sango is much more of a game than M3 which is essentially a kinetic novel, if M3 should be included, I would definitely not put it together with the "main" games, but have a separate category "other projects" or something like that. Sango would probably also fit in there because IMO it's just that touch shorter.

Akane's games:
They are actually also very (too) short.. if you mean Yami No Romance, Wanko and Love Impact. They will need that copyright-problematic RPG Maker to run though - although that shouldn't be a problem if you don't include it on the site.

As for the others... does that mean RAA will consider changing the policy and have incomplete games and also commercial game demos? Just curious. I would perhaps be for including demos/unfinished projects for the sake of "archiving" them - both Untouched and TH are most probably over and one day they may disappear for good. Maybe the category wouldn't have to be named "demos", but "unfinished" or similar.

The second thing, including commercial demos (TF?, SSG, SCS) is something that will have to be discussed - I don't know yet what I should think. On one hand the goal is to archive all fan-made projects, on the other hand, technically, these were commercial projects and you're not archiving the whole effort (like you are when you archive an unfinished demo of a dead project, because that demo IS everything).

[rioka]

They will not be included as the other games already under the Games page. I'm talking about them being linked and only linked (though if some disappear in future, we'll have to talk about this again). Plus they will be under their own page and not listed with the other complete games (at least for now since PyTom will be redoing things).

As for commercial games.. in my POV, indie games are essentially home-made and thus can fall under the "fan-made" section. If you're talking about the bigger development studios, though, that's where I would draw the line.

[mikey]

Ummm, actually I did mean all games that were being sold, but as I said, that's the way I sort things in the encyclopedia, it doesn't have to be RAA's policy.

A side note, there's something like NaNoTransMo http://altogether.insani.org/ going on, and it raises the question of course, what about translated (free, fan-made) games? They are not OEL, but still EL and made by fans.

I would still have the main goal of RAA in front of my eyes - archiving fan works, so they don't disappear one day. It's IMO almost a noble idea, not promoting, not discussing, just archiving. I'd have a hard time thinking which direction to take RAA now, to be honest. Things change, I remember I was more or less against including text games in the past, now it's the only proposal (a special text games section), that I can 100% say I would want that.

There, even guys can be complicated.

[PyTom]

Hm... In general, I think the criteria for archiving should be:

1. Can we legally do it? I'm leery of hosting games made of/from copyrighted material. The server we use also hosts a number of other web sites, so we need to be careful about this.

2. Does the game tell a complete story? I'm less interested in hosting incomplete demos, as they disappoint me without me buying the complete game. It may make to archive (without making available online) demos and the like, for historical reasons.

I'm also not all that interested in hosting translations, both for reason 1, because I primarily see renai.us as a host for original work, and also because I don't think they really need it.

My standards drop considerably for linking. I think we should link aggressively, to everything that people may be interested in, that's freely playable and in English.

[mikey]

Basically, I agree - there are copyright issues, there are games that just don't fit, so this will be a good direction to take. Telling a complete story is also a good criteria to have. So... does that mean in effect:

Files: ren'ai games (the bunch)
Files: text games (akari, Namiki... amatire?)
Links: dead/archived (Town Heat, Untouched)
Links: shareware (SShoolgirls, SCSkies)
Links: tribute games (M3, S!)
Links: translations

How about "sites with projects" - that have no demos etc? Also, as for interested prople, does that also mean "relevant sites", like those about bishoujo gaming? Or is that too far away from the fan-factor?

[mikey]

I'd give the author a little more time to respond (it is a holiday weekend after all).

I'm trying to decide what standard there should be for including games in the archive. I think we probably want a minimal level of... um... completeness, just so people who download a game at random, or the first game on the list, get a reasonable game.

I may put together a new area for demos and incomplete games.

^_^ thread revival.

I generally agree on the completeness requirement.
I'd also probably want ren'ai, but oh well, these days a VN is often non-ren'ai and I could live with that.

Maybe "unfinished games" would be a good idea - people could get information about upcoming projects, Foxtaile etc and so...

Also, linking to the official LS thread could be a good idea... maybe.
EDIT: And I read the other time you're considering the fanfinction-type of works as well?

[PyTom]

^_^ thread revival.

Banned for life for necromancy! Oh, wait, this isn't the MT forums.

I'd also probably want ren'ai, but oh well, these days a VN is often non-ren'ai and I could live with that.

I'm also considering making a VNA sister site to the RAA, which would share the database and the like.

Maybe "unfinished games" would be a good idea - people could get information about upcoming projects, Foxtaile etc and so...

I lean strongly against this. The last thing we need is to have an entry for every game that released anything, and games that released nothing. One thing I believe should remain invariant is that when you download a game from the RAA, you get a complete experience.

Also, linking to the official LS thread could be a good idea... maybe.

I'll add that to the next version of the RAA software.

EDIT: And I read the other time you're considering the fanfinction-type of works as well?

I am... provided that the game itself is original, in terms of art assets and music. I mean, fanfiction.net gets away with it, why shouldn't we?

[mikey]

Maybe "unfinished games" would be a good idea - people could get information about upcoming projects, Foxtaile etc and so...

I lean strongly against this. The last thing we need is to have an entry for every game that released anything, and games that released nothing. One thing I believe should remain invariant is that when you download a game from the RAA, you get a complete experience.

Yes, fair point, this was a wrong idea, although I didn't mean that all projects should get an entry (it's just me who does that ^_^). Town Heat is a good (and only?) example. Maybe extensive demos like that could have a honorary section as well - for historical reasons. But they should probably be dead to qualify.

I'm also considering making a VNA sister site to the RAA, which would share the database and the like.

Actually that isn't a bad idea. Hmmm, would that mean that some games would be considered ren'ai and others VNs?

But it could mean problems as well. For instance Hikari is clearly VN, and ToL is clearly ren'ai. But... there is reconstruction, there is amatire, kiwi... would that mean listing some titles twice, or strictly on one site? And isn't it STILL better to have everything on one page? Simplicity has the advantage of being simple...

[RedSlash]

I'm also considering making a VNA sister site to the RAA, which would share the database and the like.

I like this idea, as during the past year or so, we found more diversity in the themes of the games being made. Though, I would prefer to have all of this in one single archive/website.

[PyTom]

Again, the classification issue are odd. For example, Idol/TYPE is not really a visual novel. So it would go into the RAA, but not a hypothetical VNA.

To be honest, I'm looking for a better guiding principle then "someone on this forum made the game", and haven't found it yet. Something like "original english-language visual story-oriented games" is probably right, but OELVSOG is quite the mouthful.

And saying it out loud will probably summon some sort of demon. So don't try it at home, kids.

[mikey]

Maybe it's just not a good idea to tie the games to a certain name. The site name can stay, RenAi Archives, as well as the domain - there's nothing wrong with it IMO.

But having more refined categories could probably do the trick. The games could have information about their ren'ai content (yes, partly, no). And, most of all, more screenshots. I think this is quite impostant, as it will quickly show the potential player what the game is about.

Also, I don't think that all games made on these forums should go into the RAA. It's not just a matter of personal opinion (currently there are two or three games I think that don't really fit), but also I think that as neutral as the site is, there is a minimum on direction it should go. There will always be cases where it's necessary to decide whether it still qualifies, but that's nothing that an editor couldn't do.