How much game in your story? And other questions.

[kinougames]

So after reading something from Jack_Norton about how he was moving away from pure VNs to do heavy gameplay VNs for commercial reasons, I was very interested in what lemma thought a good balance of gameplay and story was.

For a game 10 hours long, are you thinking about an even split? 5 hours of gaming, 5 hours of story? Are you story-heavy? 7 hours of story, maybe, 3 hours of gaming? Or are you most interested in the gameplay...7 hours of gameplay, 3 hours of story? Does it depend from game to game?

My other question is about "filler". There are always places for filler in any game, going to the store, having random people talking...really, any reason at all. Would you be more pleased if that filler was fleshed out to be more story-like? Or should filler stay where it belongs, short and sweet?

[SusanTheCat]

My Personal Opinions:
I can play a sim for hours and hours and hours.
I am really really bad a shooting games or anything that demands reflexes. (except music games)
I'm not a big fan of kinetic novels -- I can stand about 2 hours at a time.

My ideal mix is 70% sim and 30% story.

Filler question:
I don't like reading large blocks of text or clicking through screen after screen of pointless dialog.
So maybe a line or two at a time. Just enough to give a feel that these poeple have lives apart from the game. I do like side stories -- things not related to the main plot, but run parallel to it.

Susan

[Greeny]

For the sake of immersion, I think the line between story and game should be a bit blurry.

[kinougames]

I agree that they should be blurry, but if you're reading, that's "story" and if you're doing, that's "gameplay". I'm not sure how blurry those two can get, unless it's a reading game. xD

@ Susan

Would you be okay with 5-10 lines of dialogue? I agree as far as long text blocks, but I feel like 10 clicks goes by really fast. xD

[Deji]

I like story! I hate grinding.
If the gameplay can drive me from one piece of the story to the next in a reasonable time and it feels I'm making the reasonable effort to 'earn' the next piece of the story, then it's ok.
If I feel i'm speding more time in 'gameplay' than I feel it's needed for the next piece of story, I feel cheated.

[Greeny]

I agree that they should be blurry, but if you're reading, that's "story" and if you're doing, that's "gameplay". I'm not sure how blurry those two can get, unless it's a reading game. xD

You're right. What I mean is that in the least, when you're doing gameplay, you still feel like it's just a natural part of what's happening. Don't know if that makes sense.

[lepapillonrouge]

I think with fillers, as long as they have a purpose of existing within the story, then it's okay. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time.

[papillon]

I get restless. VNs are not as comfortable to read as a pure novel onscreen, and they don't always play nice with the rest of my computer if I tab out of them, so I end up staring at the VN for so long and then dropping out feeling like I need to scream.

This is why I tend to mix in occasional gameplay, or very frequent choices. I need to feel that I'm doing something active, or I need to take a lot of breaks.

However, heavy gameplay with too few breaks for meaningful story will also exhaust my patience. I start feeling like "what's the point of all this? It's all going to be more of the same." and stop.

It's mostly in certain flavors of RPG/Adventure that I can end up glued to a game all day. A plot that keeps me motivated and gameplay that keeps me involved.

Of course, keeping someone attached to the screen for twelve hours straight might not be your goal.

[kinougames]

@papillon
I think my group's goal is to pin players to their seats. No one is gonna play a game they hate for 12 hours, and in general, people who would rather play for a long time I feel are okay with spending more than the casual "Yay Bejeweled for 5 minutes" crowd.

@lepapillonrouge
Yeah, fillers was a bit of a faux pas to say, but there are some parts of games that you could stick a generic single phrase in and have nothing really happen, or I feel like you could fill it in with relative dialogue.

@greeny
It makes sense.

@Deji
I'm not talking about RPG-like grinding. More like a sim with story bits.

[SusanTheCat]

Would you be okay with 5-10 lines of dialogue? I agree as far as long text blocks, but I feel like 10 clicks goes by really fast. xD

That wouldn't be too bad.

What I really hate:
- You talk to an NPC the first time, they give you a story about how their pig escaped into the kitchen. (5-10 lines)
- You come back and talk to the NPC and they give you THE EXACT SAME STORY. And you have to click through it again.

I like it when the game remembers that you already heard the pig story so doesn't tell you it again. (unless you want them to)

Susan

[jack_norton]

In Remember Me I have quite a long introduction (long=by casual players standards! it's probably 70-80 lines long, so nothing big for a VN player!). So, I put the option for "Quick Intro" (also useful when you replay it for a different ending).

The rest of the game "triggers" some scenes, but most of them are 20-30 lines (with 2 choices each).
I think there is NOT a definite answer to this though. I've seen some people comment in Hanako's forums that they prefer Heileen games over Spirited Heart (!!) because they don't like the stat-raising and just want to read.
Sometimes you just need to do a game you LIKE to do. If I have to listen only to my sales, I should NEVER make a sci-fi game anymore for example but I like the setting, so I'll be making more (not this year though).

[kinougames]

Oh, undoubtedly I don't just listen to customers as far as games, or I'd make everything that could possibly be made. A lot of people don't like stat raising. I, in general, don't, but I ADORED Princess Maker 2 to the tune of being glued to my computer for 14+ hours on each of my first two run-throughs. At the same time, I remember wishing there were a little more to read. I more wanted to know if that was just me, or something others might've felt.

(As far as just reading, I don't play games if that's all I want to do~)

For PPBB, I also start out with a longer intro, and then there are about 40-45 potential scenes you can get from 5-30 lines each.

[Celestie]

Those stat-raising-based stories aren't my type either, as I found out by playing the fantranslated Tokimeki Girls Side for the DS. what I prefer are story-heavy games with active choice-sequences. Or, what I enjoyed in the DS-game 999, sequences where you can solve quizzzes or something similar that doesn't partly rely on good luck but maybe logical planning/thinking. I'm story-orientated, anyway, so it's only my own preference.

[Mirage]

I think my group's goal is to pin players to their seats. No one is gonna play a game they hate for 12 hours, and in general, people who would rather play for a long time I feel are okay with spending more than the casual "Yay Bejeweled for 5 minutes" crowd.

Lol, you never know. I played some games for over 10 hours in hope for it to get better, but of course by the 10th hour I would slam my joystick and say screw it. On the other hand, I know some people who plays over 60 hours on games that they would rate crap by the end of the day.

On topic, I personally prefer 80% story, 20% gameplay. I absolutely hate sim of any kind, so by game play, I actually mean mini-games. I quite enjoy puzzles and hidden object games.

I also dislike fillers of any kind. If you are absolutely have to put something in-between, it have to be either interesting, amusing or plot-related. Otherwise, don't bother. They are the fastest way to put me to sleep.

[kinougames]

@Celestie

The way I wrote my sim game was so that it would not be luck, but a system that you could learn after playing a couple of times. That was the reason I preferred Princess Maker 2 to other sim games...after playing it through, you realized there were ways to get better and better endings, and much less was based on random luck of the draw than on learning to play the game skillfully.

I wanted this sim to be a skill-based game...once you got it, you can consistently do well.

@Mirage

I can safely say I've never played a game for 10 hours that I didn't intend to finish. xD I'm sorry you don't like sim games, but Mitsumata should be much more up your alley, as a light RPG/hidden screen/puzzle minigame type VN with about 75% story. xD

As far as fillers, I'm not talking about anime-like fillers that have nothing to do with the story and are there because of manga delays or to make money. I'm more thinking of "extra tidbits that develop the characters and are fun to playthrough but aren't 100% integral to the story." I thought that might be a good way to take a heavy story VN and make it replayable besides endings, adding new scenes each time you finish it.