ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

[PyTom]

Folks here might be interested in discussing some of the points made in this week's Answerman column on Anime News Network:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2011-04-01

It's the third question - the one with the flamewar ahead symbol in the middle. I'll note that this is a guest answerman, if that matters.

[KomiTsuku]

I'm sorry, but the line "Choose Your Own Little Girl To Rape Adventure" totally cracked me up. Maybe I'm just waaaaaaay too tired, but I broke down laughing when I read that.

They have a fair amount of good points and things to consider. When I am more conscious than I am at this moment, I will post my thoughts on it. The short, short answer is that some of the reasons posted are why I'm trying to go with a sci-fi adventure (has nothing to do with schools or Japan {not that there is anything wrong with that, please don't flame me...}) that focuses on the story, not the girls. We can have both, right?

[kinougames]

Yep. I pretty much agree with him. Even VNs with just a bit of a gameplay side tend to do better than "pure" VNs. My group is revamping Mitsumata to have more gameplay than originally decided because of this sort of basic truth about Westerners and VNs.

[flowerthief]

For VNs that aren't going to incorporate game elements I'd like to see more big titles follow the example of School Days and be animated as much as possible. If you're denying your audience interacting with the story that much, you can at least make it more enjoyable for them to watch. They say VN's are something in between a game and a book, but I'd like them to be something in between a game and an anime.

[LVUER]

I'm sorry, but the line "Choose Your Own Little Girl To Rape Adventure" totally cracked me up. Maybe I'm just waaaaaaay too tired, but I broke down laughing when I read that.

It also make me laugh, since it is right... for some VN.

[jack_norton]

Even VNs with just a bit of a gameplay side tend to do better than "pure" VNs.

Hah, that's what I've been saying in my twitter/blog/those forums since months!
Jokes apart, I agree with "while a typical visual novel is lucky to sell 2000 copies", but then if you start adding other gameplay element, can you still call that "visual novel" ???
For example in the first Dragon Age (haven't played the 2nd yet, but I think will be similar) you had LOT and LOT of dialogues, much more than an action RPG like Torchlight for example.
I mean, if you add lot of gameplay element, then is hard to call the game still a VN. I see people calling Planet Stronghold a VN/RPG hybrid - maybe it is, but the game has less texts than Dragon Age for sure

[gekiganwing]

Daryl Surat and the other creators of Anime World Order are well known through fandom for their severe, often cynical opinions. They're clearly intelligent, but I find their negativity and bitterness to be very off-putting. These individuals are caustic critics of almost any series with a male lead and a potential harem, or any series which doesn't measure up to their intellectual standards. But at the same time, they give a pass to almost any boys love or reverse harem series. It's because of this double standard that I stopped listening to their podcast in 2007. Likewise, I actively avoid any of their discussion panels at fan conventions.

[DaFool]

I'm willing to bet Matches & Matrimony and Planet Stronghold outsold Mangagamer's "bestsellers" Shuffle! and Koihime Musou simply because of their more casual positioning on the market. I think it was mentioned that the latter two each didn't even break 1000 units.

when visual novels have titles like Suck My Dick or Die (yes that is an actual best-selling title) they may as well post a sign that reads “NO 3D GIRLS ALLOWED.”

LOL the EVN scene is practically Otome-focused. Look at the Hentai subforum here it's practically crawling with tumbleweed.

I cannot disagree with the general direction the EVN scene is going.

I'm learning a lot regarding game design techniques while currently playing Ar Tonelico Qoga -- the text in that JRPG is the most in any recent JRPG I've played... it actually feels like an Ever 17 RPG in some ways (the futuristic setting that's doomed).

So yes, gameplay is great.

[Sapphi]

"Ignore catering to the desires of the current visual novel base" is good advice. There's this troubling syndrome with modern anime and manga... it seems as though companies know exactly the formula they need to sell to otaku in Japan, so they use it, and it works... over, and over, and over. That's fine, I guess, but it seems like because of that, there's less variety (and it would seem, less real story). I feel like it's sort of "inbreeding" in a sense, losing a lot of great things in pursuit of a few desirable traits that are selling for now. The pandering to otaku alienates normal viewers, and what's going to happen when even those otaku get tired of it?

Visual novels seem to suffer from the same syndrome, especially in the EVN scene. We look to popular, recent Japanese media for our guidelines because we like it, but I'm sure there are other things we're interested in besides that that we could pull ideas from.

I mean, to use anime as an example... in the 80s there was Ginga Nagareboshi Gin, a show about dogs running around violently fighting each other and giant bears. I loved reading the books The Call of the Wild and White Fang as a child, so I was really happy to discover Gin. Those books (and that show) don't contain a "hot springs episode" or really very much in the way of romance at all. They're simply good, entertaining stories that do their own thing without worrying about anything else. And not everyone will like them, but not everyone has to. The thing is, I didn't know I liked those sorts of stories until I read them. If we never try something new, we won't find new things we like and will continually be stuck with the same old tropes and cliches.

*gets off soapbox and runs away*

[kinougames]

@ Flowerthief

While having a VN between a game and an anime sounds great, Shira Oka's rather mediocre implementation of this has honestly shown why EVNs aren't doing full on animation yet. Anime level animation for just one minute can take the cost of your game and double it. The cheapest quote I've ever gotten was like $3600 for a single minute; that's not even enough for the average 1.5 minute length OP, and it wasn't even basic anime level.

A game my group eventually hopes to implement would be a full RPG, but I need at least a 5-digit budget on that before I consider starting it because I would like to incorporate some kind of animation and it's just too high in cost.

And when people on lemma are still saying "I won't pay more than $5! for an indie game" there's not much point in bothering, either.

@gekiganwing

There's a reason that I, as well, am more critical of male lead-harem than BL/reverse harem. The former is notorious for having really crappy stories. Really, really notorious. Guys who play VNs want to see cute chicks they can fap to, and their market caters to them well. Girls want more flowery fall in love romance with a pretty boy stuff, weaksauce plot, but something, and in general, BL has ALWAYS been full of plot; rarely are there BL games, manga, anime with absolutely zero plot.

I am very feh about games that aren't BL in general, because BL stuff has been my best experience as far as getting a decent plot (*points everyone back to Animamundi, because seriously, BL, crapton of plot, 100% awesome*) on top of the sweet boy loving.

You might not like the way they say it, but it's really very true.

@ Jack

I've actually been thinking of other things to call games like Ace Attorney, and my own group's games, that will have some level of gameplay. "Novel games", "Story games", "interactive media games". I also prefer to call a "sim" game a "sim", and I have to get myself into the habit of referring to PPBB as a raising sim, since it's definitely more sim than linear story, and the story is directly in relation to parts of the sim.

@ Sapphi

Otaku have been into it for a long time, and if they were getting that out of it, people would be forced to change, but they really haven't. That's because it's still selling, and big.

On the flipside, I think more VNs need to move away from the cliches and tropes. I know my group tries. Women aren't just there for cuteness and have personalities and DO things that don't rely on guys, there are characters who are normally background filler coming to the foreground and being able to tell their stories, and I try to rabidly avoid the typical uses of tropes, while still trying to implement something that gives the same feeling. I tried to avoid school and straight romance and amnesia plots and childhood friend plots and moving away plots and mysterious guy with no name plots because those are pretty rabidly typical.

[jack_norton]

And when people on lemma are still saying "I won't pay more than $5! for an indie game" there's not much point in bothering, either.

There are lots of people that say that, but you don't have always to listen to what people say. And LSF is not the whole internet anyway. I was dubious the $25 price might have been too high for PS, but actually I had many people commenting that was incredible value for the money! And indeed, it is - the problem is that sometimes you're influenced about a "vocal minority", and think that they represent the whole target market, but from my experience (and many other top-indie I speak with) very often is the opposite.
If you have to be indie and sell games fro $5, is better if you go work at McDonald

[sake-bento]

Even VNs with just a bit of a gameplay side tend to do better than "pure" VNs.

Hah, that's what I've been saying in my twitter/blog/those forums since months!
Jokes apart, I agree with "while a typical visual novel is lucky to sell 2000 copies", but then if you start adding other gameplay element, can you still call that "visual novel" ???
For example in the first Dragon Age (haven't played the 2nd yet, but I think will be similar) you had LOT and LOT of dialogues, much more than an action RPG like Torchlight for example.
I mean, if you add lot of gameplay element, then is hard to call the game still a VN. I see people calling Planet Stronghold a VN/RPG hybrid - maybe it is, but the game has less texts than Dragon Age for sure

I tend to call them VN hybrids. I think it also depends on the nature of the game. For instance, I can't really say that Professor Layton is a visual novel. It's a puzzle game wrapped in a visual novel format. On the other hand, 999 is a visual novel with some puzzles in it.

Also, the discussion on ANN seems purely focused on the Japanese market and the super tiny import market with nary an idea of what's going on in the EVN scene. o.o

[Taleweaver]

Of all the aforementioned "VNs successful outside Japan", only the Ace Attorney series is truly, honestly, deeply VN. The so-called "gameplay elements" in AA are nothing but input gadgets; failing to use them properly will never lead to a game over (unlike failing the VN parts), so if Ace Attoney can make it, there's really no reason why other VNs shouldn't if they

a) have an attractive presentation in terns of art and music - not necessarily top-notch, but good-looking
b) present gripping plots because, let's face it, Ace Attoney has some of the best dramatic writing ever
c) appeal to a wide audience and don't have any content that is objectionable to most normal people

However, I don't think that any of us here has the budget to professionally produce something even remotely successful. We make games that appeal to a different audience, often more artsy, sometimes more provocative. I don't think our games are much like "choose your own underage rape victim", it's more like "choose your own Jonathan Franzen novel". Well, that and "choose your own Vaudeville slapstick comedy". Mostly.

[kinougames]

@ Jack
Oh, trust me, I never listen to those people, and but it's not just lemma I've seen it on. At any rate, even some of the really awesome JP indies who have notoriously awesome games don't bother with mass amounts of 2-D or 3-D animation and still sell quite on the high end. And since they can, I'd probably consider them loopy if they bothered to spend an extra 10K on a few minutes of animation when they don't have to.

@Taleweaver
AA is the closest to a VN, but it's still gameplay. You CAN get a game over, but you can also start from where you last were. (If you lose all your energy or smth, you can get a gameover during court.)

Furthermore, it's not always budget that produces something successful...sometimes it's just a good idea at the right time.

[flowerthief]

I like to think of AA as adventure, or adventure with a VN presentation. Although "adventure" is a broad genre, the Japanese use the term much too broadly imo and apply it to all kinds of things I would never call adventure. But AA has the qualities I expect from an adventure--exploration/examination of the game world and its characters, and puzzle-solving. I like to recognize it as such because aside from action adventures (Zelda, Metroid, ICO, etc) I don't think the Japanese are very good at the genre.