virgins....

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papillon
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#16 Post by papillon »

akimaru, are your friends even old enough to play hentai games legally? :)

sorry, but they do sound very young (and on that one guy's part, very unpleasant - if I were a rape victim I would MUCH PREFER that he stayed far away from me! :) ).

I'm basing my statements on boys I talked to in university, and on large discussions on the issue on the somethingawful forums. Something Awful is not exactly the most polite place in the world, but they generally boil down to be fairly sensible after they make a few gross jokes. :)

The university conversation started because someone who believed the bit about "if she tells me this, it means she will only ever see me as a friend" was complaining that ALL of his female friends had sprung rape stories on him, and he was getting pretty fed up with the rest of the world for inflicting so much shit on girls and ruining his chances with them. :)

Sadly, realistically, a very high percentage of American girls have had at least SOME kind of unwanted sexual advance made on them. Most of them, I believe, haven't gone as far as 'rape', but they still leave issues. However, even if you meet a girl who HASN'T even been groped, touched, flashed, had her pants pulled down in public, or otherwise sexually humiliated, she will still probably have SOME emotional problem somewhere that needs dealing with. :) People all have problems.

We fixate on rape a little too much in modern culture sometimes. Yes, rape can be horribly traumatic. So can having your boyfriend blow his brains out while he's on the telelphone with you. (No, this did not happen to me.)

Whenever you get into a serious romantic relationship with someone, you're going to have to face their demons at some point...

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#17 Post by Akimaru »

^Sad enough they are even old enough to date girls....(yes theyre same age as me, 18 )
I hang around with a lot more guys who aren't as intellectual as the university ones...
I notice they have a lot less respect for woman than the ones at my school.

I agree though, some crimes get more attention than they deserved and some crimes not enough...rape can go both ways and is sometimes heavily fixed on.
I know some girls claim to be raped just so they get attention
while most of the real victims hide it from the world.

I like my story to have twists and drama then a japanese pop culture kind of game, putting serious subjects into a sentimentic way would add nicely to it.

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#18 Post by mikey »

ShiraiJunichi wrote:A guy who restrains some of his most powerful innate desires simply so he can be intimate with only one girl- the girl of his dreams. So he can tell her that he's waited all his life so he can share this part of himself with only her... This guy is a loser? I'm sorry, but that really offends me... Why is it different for a man than a woman? It's stupid- it shouldn't be that way. A man who sleeps around is thought of as normal, but a woman who does the same is a dirty slut. A female virgin is cute, but a male virgin is pathetic... These kind of double standards infuriate me...
Absolutely, I agree 100%. It's just unacceptable, if I have to be honest.
ShiraiJunichi wrote:... it's kind of sad that rape can be talked of so casually- but I guess it's a product of the H-games that pervade this genre... *sigh*
Once again, what can I add... It's just what I'd have written as a reply.

But on topic a bit, I have to say that my attitude towards virginity has somehow (logically) found a way into the games I make. All of the characters and protagonists are virgins, or they live in a relationship with the first person they ever loved ("latent" virginity). And this is not just lack of background information. Because I feel so strongly about this, I made those stories with the explicit thought in my head that the characters are like this. One notable exception is Gakuen Redux, but that's also because GR is about just that exception when the protagonist isn't a virgin.

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#19 Post by PyTom »

I believe that Something Awful got around the casual referral problem by referring to "Violent Rape" as "Rambunctious Cuddling" in one of their reviews.

I think there's a bit of a descriptivist/proscriptivist dilemma in this thread, with some people describing things as they are and others describing things as they should be.

There's also the ability to suspend disbelief in fiction... just because a secnario is unrealistic, there's no need to completely exclude it from your VN.
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#20 Post by mikey »

PyTom wrote:There's also the ability to suspend disbelief in fiction... just because a secnario is unrealistic, there's no need to completely exclude it from your VN.
I do agree, and even though I usually play "as myself", from time to time, when the day is right and I feel like it, I manage to get into a very different character and actually enjoy a "stronger" or unrealistic game in the sense that this topic describes them. So by all means, do anything you like, because as a game-maker I can say that often I will enjoy games I would never (for whichever reasons) make (or be able to make) myself.

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#21 Post by Akimaru »

^mikey kinda like how you wrote a review about virgin roster......
I don't play h-game much, that was the first one i played in several years.
Anyhow I understand playing someone who's totally opposite of you might appeal to some people.
but the whole game consist of a raper who like to rape highschool girls and their teachers... so I'm sorry for not understanding the fun in that, even if it's once in a while.

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#22 Post by musical74 »

I have got to agree with Shirai on the subject of a male virgin. A guy who saves himself for that special someone, resisting temptations, should be thought of ascommendable, not a freak. Let me see if I understand this correctly: a woman who is a virgin at, say, 30 is *cute* or adorable, but a 30 year old man who's a virgin is a loser. That dual standard is SO wrong.

On the subject of videogame virgins...I'm not sure. The fact that rape is discussed so casually among the h-game genre is rather disgusting.
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#23 Post by papillon »

Well, by the age of *thirty*, it's probably considered a bit weird for either men OR women to remain completely inexperienced, unless they've entered the priesthood. :) And many people would suspect, by that point, that you were in fact gay and unable to deal with it. If we're going by common stereotypical opinion, anyway.

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#24 Post by Counter Arts »

lol...

I think there would be a way to get around the judgements of being a male virgin. It probably has to do with how you deal with it.

Oh, that double standard does bother me. But I'm not really worried since I can get around that problem. I'm one of those guys that is going to choose to remain a virgin till I'm married. I know that will annoy some girls.

It's kinda funny since I can have whole conversations about h things to guys that are experinced... and that other guys wouldn't really understand. And no, it's not because I play 18+ ren'ai games.

In terms of virginity, I tend to think of effective virgins. It's when a girl can act just like a virgin (like I would know... yeah right). My guess is when a girl bears her heart, soul and body to you when you make love.

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#25 Post by ShiraiJunichi »

I think a 30 year old virgin sounds strange because by age 30, I think most people who are waiting for that special someone have found them, or at least thought they had found them...

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#26 Post by bookie »

PyTom wrote: I think there's a bit of a descriptivist/proscriptivist dilemma in this thread, with some people describing things as they are and others describing things as they should be.
*cheer*

That's what I'm noticing too. Some people seem to be debating the idea of The Virgin, and others seem to be talking about virgins. (not only posters but the people they've talked to)

There's way too much connotation going on with the word Virgin. It only means that you haven't had sex yet, not that you don't want to or are chaste or have some sort of pure mind.

In contrast we have the non-virgin, who may be seen as dirty or of loose morals or whatever. But if you're going to look at the spectrum of human experience you'll have girls who've had sex because they like sex, girls who thought they were in love, or were in love, girls who were pressured into sex, girls who don't believe in the whole 'save yourself for one person' thing, and so on and so forth. If you lock certain character traits with virginity I personally think your stories will be a little flat, because they'll be clinging to an ideal that doesn't exist in real life.

But everyone makes and plays renai games for different reasons. There's nothing wrong with deciding you want your game populated with virgins. But I do think it limits how intricate your characters can be. Plus, I don't know if it's a good idea to perpetuate the false idea of non-virgins being gross.

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#27 Post by mikey »

Akimaru wrote:^mikey kinda like how you wrote a review about virgin roster.......
Surely you don't mean this one... :?
The one in the encyclopedia isn't really a review.
Akimaru wrote:Anyhow I understand playing someone who's totally opposite of you might appeal to some people. but the whole game consist of a raper who like to rape highschool girls and their teachers... so I'm sorry for not understanding the fun in that, even if it's once in a while
Well, it's more like instead of defending oneself against the game's intentions, you call their bluff and see what comes out (if you can, want... once in a while). First of all, you have to simply rid yourself from the idea that this is in any way ren'ai and in addition to that, you have to be able to laugh at certain things and not take them seriously. Played as a sex game VR is a good, if typically schoolgirlish one. There are several good no-think sex-only games, and I'd say VR is somewhere near the middle, but of course changing your point of view won't help make a game better if it manages to be stupid. With VR though, I'll concede it's more a matter of the right time, mood and lots of other factors than its game design.

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#28 Post by JackalAndromeda »

I don't really want to be with a virgin, at least not my first time. I'd really like *one* of us to know what the hell we're doing. I just want someone experianced so it hurts as little as possible.

It's odd that the term virgin carries so many connotations about purity and ignorance and such. I have a lot of knowledge about sex and what I consider a healthy attitude towards it, but I've never had it.

I find society's need to equate the state of your hymen to your self worth/desireability as a lover... well, not good. There are even plastic surgeons who will rebuild it for thousands of dollars- the price people will pay just for the appearance of virginity.

Female sexuality has always been overly mystified. In the 1970s the Sudan finally moved to make 'The cutting of the rose' against the law. That is, female genital mutilation.

Men and women who want to save themselves should be supported, and probably given a medal. It's not an easy task in this world. However I think that we as a society shouldn't condem people who do choose to have sex. (Though we should encourage them to do it safely and provide education.)

Also, I thank God that I am not a cat. Female cats have the worst possible sex ever.

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#29 Post by papillon »

Female cats don't enjoy it much, but at least their partner doesn't bite off their head in the middle of the act!

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#30 Post by PyTom »

JackalAndromeda wrote:I don't really want to be ... a virgin, at least not my first time.
Okay, when I first read this, I didn't see the word "with", totally changing the meaning of the sentence, and making it a much more difficult feat to accomplish.

In fact, all means of doing so tend to involve things like stepping into the accellerator of project Quantum Leap.
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