Original Visual Novel Festival

[Kael]

Okay, my reflexive point of view...

This competition is clearly for starters, and if the people behind this event didn't intend to make it this way, they are subject to critic.

The rules are fine, they are not strict. First of all, some people want to get their big games some years in the making running against people who probably don't have the resources or the ability to match them in any way. What about all the people that wish to create their own VN's but they lack knowledge or some abilities for basic development? They can grab some generic resources in the internet with the hopes of exposure to find a good artist/coder/musician to band together as a team.

You'd probably think "Hey, but this is not about who has the best game!" that's true, but you are forgetting something here; people will get atracted to those more complex/adictive gameplay/eye candy graphics VN's and probably won't play any other project shown there. I quote from the rules: VNs only, kinetic is allowed, but dating sim or things that involve any advanced mechanisms (aka battles, mini games) are not allowed. --This will make it fair for everyone so no games are "more interesting to play" only because there's more interaction.-- Emphasis in the red line. Some of you already have good teams for VN development and/or have great projects in the making with nice gameplay/graphics, but a lot of novices don't. It would be like trying to wrestle with someone 10 years younger than you, this of course is not fair at all. In reality some of you guys have higher standards so you find these rules "ridiculous". All in all you either enter with a simple project which I believe shouldn't be a problem, or just skip this one, because it's clearly not for you. VN isn't synonym of date simulator or otome games, current tradition makes these genre's in VN's more popular though.

I remember a lot of old western graphics games which were more like interactive books, besides it says Kinetic novels are allowed, meaning that you can put choices in the game. A lot of people just want to create a decent game; not everyone is a jack of all trades, so they are in need of other people. Who can blame them for that? they seek for an enjoyable experience to the reader. Your big games with skilled artists/coders will get exposure inevitably, they won't be left in the dark, there's no need to critic the people behind this competition.

Thank you.

[Miss-Mae]

Holy cow! I didn't expect to come back to a debate, lol. Also, if they don't change their rules, maybe one or a few of us can make a contest of our own? I mean, other than Nano. Anyways, just a thought. Friendly competition can be fun, after all.

[Aleema]

Why is it clearly for starters? I don't really think your post addressed that.

You guys are going to make me word barf again. I just ... so ... disagree ... must ... not ... reply ...

Ahh! I can't not reply! I don't care what they do with their contest, I'm not entering, but my views are this: their objective of the contest and how they're handling it are clashing. I disagree that their objective is to encourage new game-makers or to make a contest for novices/beginners only. If that is the case, they haven't done a good job listing that as their mission. In fact, what they have listed as their objective is to give existing developers that have shown interest in their dA group a "push" in their game development (and so far, a lot of those games have been must be excluded from their contest). They sound very open and inviting with phrases like "everyone can join!" but then we get to a very specific rule about excluding any game that has any gameplay outside of a menu choice.

The contest is a work in progress, as evidenced by their lack of prizes and lack of understanding of how the judging will work. This is the best time to give suggestions. Their tone is one of both a contest (winners) AND a festival (public reviewing), and that confuses me. They're conflicting in the tone and objective of their contest. I'm not critiquing the people, but the contest.

I completely understand that novices can't "compete" with so-called "big" projects. One vs. many is rarely fair. But in this case, that "one" individual had the same opportunity and chances to become "many" as much as the others. For example, I did not have a budget for my game, nor did I start the game with an artist or a writer or whatever. I started by myself, with only my coding skill. I stumbled through a story, had a decent demo, and people started to offer help. My goals aren't money or publicity, I wanted what every novice game maker wants: validation for my efforts. To see a game become a reality, etc. This isn't some ploy to get advertising for my very free game. I genuinely wanted reviews. To say that I can't because I'm, what, too big and intimidating? Take out the sim/RPG portions of my games, and you'd likely be saying the same thing, because of random BS like "graphical eye candy"? Is art no longer something we're judging now? Should we exclude any game that has beautiful character art because they're so interesting and that's unfair to the other games? -_-

Okay, getting off my soapbox now. Just remember I'm writing this much because I feel compelled to do so. I'm not harping on the contest or the people running it, I'm just very principled.

Edit: Here, I found their mission statement put very simply:

Original VN Festival

Purpose

VN creators - can advertise their VNs (either WIP or finished)
VN players - can play original VNs based on their reviews
All - increase awareness of VNs; have fun!

Disallowing VNs based on whether or not there is a mini-game is a disservice to their objectives. They even call it a festival. Meaning, it seems they combined their two ideas into one, which is clashing.

[PyTom]

Disallowing VNs based on whether or not there is a mini-game is a disservice to their objectives.

This kind of comes down to the "what is a VN" argument. I think there's a good case to be made that when you start including minigames, you've left VN territory, and are in the larger digital storytelling space. To some extent, I use fairly strict definitions here - I think dating sims where the story can repeat are a distinct space from visual novels where it can't.

[Aleema]

Disallowing VNs based on whether or not there is a mini-game is a disservice to their objectives.

This kind of comes down to the "what is a VN" argument. I think there's a good case to be made that when you start including minigames, you've left VN territory, and are in the larger digital storytelling space. To some extent, I use fairly strict definitions here - I think dating sims where the story can repeat are a distinct space from visual novels where it can't.

Fair. It does come down to what they consider a VN to be. I don't think the inclusion of a roulette mini-game, for instance, to completely disregard the rest of the game's story or characters as that of a visual novel. I can, however, see how it would be fair not to compare one to a kinetic novel (as I would think it unfair to compare a VN to a kinetic novel), but that is why we suggested multiple categories so that comparison does not happen. If someone is reviewing a game on it's own merits, why would you need to compare it to another genre? You're missing out on VNs because there's side games in them. You're missing out on genuine story and characters and music -- you're robbing yourself of experiences that VNs have, but because of this idea of a contest, you have to label them as irrelevant. I understand a complicated gameplay system, such as with my games (sim or RPG) to be wholly different, but that's besides the point of that line you quoted.

I would never, ever, not say that my games were VNs. I emphasis story and take advantage of the VN story method so damn much. It defines my games. It's a VN with an RPG in it, to me. I make VNs. And if you want to celebrate and increase awareness of the visual novel, you don't disallow VNs because of some slapped-on contest idea you had. You don't even have a contest if you have to restrict the very thing you were trying to showcase! And if you DON'T want to showcase any VN that has more gameplay than a menu choice, then that's what I find so maddening. You crown your winner: "This is the best original visual novel (that had no interesting gameplay outside of some menu choices)" will likely not be said, just that first part. Does this affect me in the least? I've already decided that it doesn't, but I speak still because no one wants to see that this is a folley of theirs, and if they wanted to help the OELVN community, they succeeded in disappointing a large percentage of it.

Summary: if your goal is to celebrate VNs, you should invite everyone to the party.
If your goal is to celebrate VNs that don't "betray" your idea of a VN and make them compete for you, shine on you crazy diamond.

You know what, all this debating kind of makes me want to start a contest/festival of my own. Anyone interested?

I think papillon's anecdote kinda explains that this isn't a good idea. Also, I'm not interested in a "contest", but a festival. I believe Teacup has one?

[Aleema]

Maybe not necessarily a contest, I just though that if this contest/festival is so restrictive, it'd be a pity if it was the only one around.

Especially since rather opposed to kinetic or simple visual novels, I'd really like to see some more innovation in the genre.

The VN group hasn't necessarily made their final ruling, and if we form some new contest at this point it will seem spiteful and earn us no favors. I agree that innovation shouldn't be punished, though. If we can beef up an existing VN festival, like Teacup's, then that would be the best idea. I agree that if they just do this contest over and over, never recognizing divergent genres, that would discourage those genres. (Which were prohibited because they were fun to play!) But I'm not going to undermine them ...

[YuukiCrossPudding]

Whoa *_*
I just saw that original VN contest festival like in the group I'm in and wondering if the forum talking about it.
and I just have time to open the forum posts.
I thought "lol not just talking! they're debating about it!xD"
This is what I thought, and sorry for my bad english, also I'm pretty scared to say what I got in mind.
I'll just cover it >A<

Hm.. well yeah it's a strict rule alright, maybe it's to attract more beginner or nOObs (like me :3) to make a VN.
or it's just they don't have enough time to judge it all, or probably like sake said~

There's no good or bad things there, it is their rules, and they're the one who make the contest/festival.
But what I think of festival is where anyone can post their VN games or something?
coz' duh it's a festival! anyone can come and join! but it is still depend on who make the festival, if she/he want rules then the one who join her/his festival must follow the rules, pretty fair I think.
If I make a festival (not VN though) I'll make rules for no one to ever sleep on the ground (it's obvious who want that?? a crazy ppl sleep while the festival is on??)

Maybe not necessarily a contest, I just though that if this contest/festival is so restrictive, it'd be a pity if it was the only one around.

Especially since rather opposed to kinetic or simple visual novels, I'd really like to see some more innovation in the genre.

probably they will hold another one... maybe? without those rules if this festival contest like is working out well?
Maybe?

But yeah for the one who want to sleep on the ground while the festival is on it my rules is a pretty bad rules. Like school rules!
sometimes they're not making any sense(but it is good for us in a way)
..... I think I'm going out from the point here... -_-
Well my point is :
it is their festival so it's up to them for making the rules, but it is kinda unfair yeah.
maybe they should post reason that is understandable to the ppl who can't enter because of this rules
I'll definitely tell the rules of why can't someone sleep on the ground, coz' it's disturbing other ppl, and I think just someone who either brave or crazy will do it. (but if everyone who came to my festival and everyone sleep on the ground I'll probably let it be? xD)

[Aleema]

I don't think a "don't sleep on the ground" rule is the equivalent of "don't come to my festival." The "not sleeping on the ground" is analogous to the 1 hour time limit to submissions. What is analogous is hosting an open-air music festival and then barring someone from entering because they have tattoos and a mohawk. =P

But yes: their contest, their rules. NO ONE IS ARGUING THEY SHOULD CHANGE JUST CUZ WE SAY SO. The debate is apparently me vs. everyone who can legitimately enter. Kidding. The debate is me just making my POV clear. I staunchly believe their goals for the contest conflict with their execution, I let them know in case they hadn't realized that, and if they don't change anything, that's fine. I'm not really fighting for my personal right to enter, but rather for any one else who has a divergent VN who got excited until they reached that rule. Scratch that, I'm not fighting at all. I'm partaking in a healthy debate with fellow VN-makers.

Also, don't be afraid to speak your mind! Don't hide your opinions in spoilers like they don't matter. More people need to speak their mind around here. If I didn't have to be such a representative then this could be more of an open forum where people aren't intimidated from speaking, and I don't have to receive secret PMs from people supporting me. Nor look like the forum bitch just because I'm not intimidated. Just speak, it's okay!

[YuukiCrossPudding]

lol thanks^^
Well I can't thought what kind of rules I want to make :3
and I'm sleepy now (when go outside and sleepy I have thought to sleep on the street instead!>A< I'm not actually doing it! XD)
probably yeah like that, but what if they have tattoos inside their clothes?? xD
I'm just thinking the rules have good side, bad side which making the rules fair sometimes. and it have it's weaknesses too, and a good side on it.
well not for ridiculous rules that forbid singing in a singing contest.OwO No one will want to join it. (except the can't sing at all)

If I were them and I'm the one who make those strict rules, I'll make it to actually inviting ppl to join the festival like contest.
and clearly inviting those who make simple VN games or probably beginner (Me! xD)

maybe if they don't want to change the rules, they should say their reason.
So it'll be clear, if their reason is reasonable

I love debate though! and I think I'll be in the english debate this month to be the school representative.
But I'm not good in speaking my mind clearly >_< so usually I told my friend what I think, and she'll talk it on the debate later.

*but I don't think I'll join the festival, since I like to take things slow, like a turtle^^
June? probably will finished.. or not? xD
and I work with other ppl who I don't want burden with "Hey! do things faster!"
it is annoying and it'll annoy me.

[Elenakiara]

Me, I'm a total beginner at this and even my story wouldn't be accepted because it's a dating sim... >.< xD

I do think that it's a bit unfair, since really, putting +1 stat-points here and there isn't -that- hard, but it's not able to be in their contest or festival... ._. It could even be something as easy as a story with two endings only, depending on how many points you have. While another story could just have many jumps and seem more interesting in that aspect. Because quite frankly, a story with many different path possibilities(as long as it's kept under the time limit of course) is already more interesting than one with an under-developped points system.

I'm not sure if I explained myself clearly though... xD

[YuukiCrossPudding]

@elena: Well yeah maybe that's right too. xD
coz' actually adding a point system isn't that hard I suppose.
But well it still their rules, xD
But my game I'm working on will have point system though... but it's not actually appear on the outside.
it'll just affect the ending itself, like you said :3 is it still a dating sim itself??

[Elenakiara]

@ Yuuki: I think that it's still a dating sim... xD But it depends on what description you have of the words 'dating sim'! xD
@ Papillon: Yes, I'm sure it is! :O It also means that we need to have lots of time to actually allot to the organizing and seeing all of the games! xD Better to be done in summer or something!

[YuukiCrossPudding]

@elena:Hmm... I still don't quite get what dating sim is though.
oh well xD
@papillon: yeah, if everyone make their contest, it'll be confusing xD

[VenusEclipse]

The rules have been revised so more people can enter.

http://visualnovel.deviantart.com/blog/39024523/

[Greeny]

Great! Is the time limit still in place?