How much game in your story? And other questions.

[Mirage]

As far as fillers, I'm not talking about anime-like fillers that have nothing to do with the story and are there because of manga delays or to make money. I'm more thinking of "extra tidbits that develop the characters and are fun to playthrough but aren't 100% integral to the story." I thought that might be a good way to take a heavy story VN and make it replayable besides endings, adding new scenes each time you finish it.

I think we are talking about the same things here. And I still stand by my point, if it's not amusing, interesting or do a thing to the story or the characters, they should be avoided.

[Celestie]

I see. Well, I tend to get frustrated if it's partly based on randomness/luck (like how successfully that stat-raising is based on luck in Tokimeki, most of the time because even if you get indications at how successfull the stat-raising that week will be, it's still based on a random generator), so if it isn't too hard and time-consuming (I can dish out incredible patience when it comes to long, long interesting stories but when it coems to that I am motivated in teh beginning....not so much later on when I haven't progressed xD) I would play it, so I am not completely avoiding them. I just prefer the story-heavy ones

[kinougames]

I think we are talking about the same things here. And I still stand by my point, if it's not amusing, interesting or do a thing to the story or the characters, they should be avoided.

Ahh, well, in that case, I've got to completely disagree. I am in the story because the characters are interesting, the more I learn about them, the happier I am.

Edit: Though, if by "do a thing to the characters" you are including "develop them" then I suppose it'd work anyway.

@Celestie
I think that if there isn't some sort of luck of the draw, you'll find yourself with the same exact game over and over, completely ruining playability, but I think that the luck should be very small, not "oh, I was lucky, so I got a great ending when I didn't do that well" or "oh, I was unlucky, I got a bad ending when I should've done really well." I'm thinking more "I did well, I could've gotten X good ending or Y good ending, it was a 'lucky shot' between the two."

In addition, one of the things I liked about Princess Maker 2 is that unlike Tokimeki, each job and class pretty much had the same effect, events that helped you came sort of estimated, so if you needed money, you could plan to have money for later by doing certain things, and any negative events weren't so negative that you could never ever recover from them. So, yes, there was a tiny bit of random (some days you might get 1 more point than other days), but it was so small that it would not ruin your game.

[gekiganwing]

Hmm... let me think of some specific "gameplay versus story" examples that I've liked in the last few years. I'm hoping this won't be TL;DR...

* Persona 4 had long sequences of linear story, as well as some non-linear life simulation elements, and dungeons which needed to be finished in a limited amount of time. I found all three parts enjoyable, though it could have been just as compelling with less linear segments.

* TMGS was mostly simulation gameplay, with a few story sequences when the main character's statistics or relationships changed. I enjoyed it, though I do admit that since stats rarely changed much from week to week, the gameplay could be awfully slow.

* Sakura Wars: So Long had many long visual novel segments, along with town exploration, quick time events, and tactical RPG gameplay. I ended up liking the VN and the wandering-through-town segments better... though that may be because I'm not really a fan of tactical RPGs.

* The Flower Shop for Windows/Mac/Linux was enjoyable, though I found the simulation gameplay challenging and a bit obtuse. After reaching the worst ending several times, I was actually relieved to find that while the iOS version didn't include much gameplay, it was much easier.

* Likewise, I liked RE: Alistair quite a bit, though I was a bit confused on how my character's actions affected the endings.

* It's been a couple months since I invested much time in a straightforward visual novel. Tried to like Canvas 2, but the game's themes and tone made me uncomfortable. It wasn't all that long ago when I really enjoyed Autumn, Daemonophilia, Project Nattsu, A Midsummer Day's Resonance, and a bunch of other freeware VNs.

* Game Dev Story had no narrative. But I enjoyed its simulation gameplay quite a bit. (I felt the same way about the first few Civilization and Simcity games.)

* Most of the puzzle games I've been enjoying lately (Peggle, Geometry Wars, Dr Mario) also are story-free, but their gameplay is compelling.

[LVUER]

Depending on the genre, I don't mind more gameplay or more genre, but yeah, I guess I want a pretty balanced story and gameplay. But I definitely do not want all gameplay or all story (so I hate KN and story-less puzzle games).

When I play Ace Combat 4/5/0, I wish there are more stories in them (I wish there is story segment/progression every one or two missions).
And when I play Mana Khemia 2 (just recently), I wish there are more gameplay in them. There's only two classes (because I always get straight A's whenever possible), several side-jobs... and then BAM, you get all character story segments. Sometime it bores me and I wish there are more battles or assignments.

Filler, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad (there are good fillers, you know). Anyway, I want fillers that acts like separator between high tension mission or level, or after/before important story progression. It could make you relax, understand the situation better, etc. For me, (good) filler is story segments that doesn't involve the main story arc and doesn't progress it at all.

[J. Datie]

Regarding filler, I think the Wikipedia article on Scene has a good list of what any good scene should have. The list is:

• Advance story (Obviously something that filler wouldn't have, otherwise it would be filler.)

• Show conflict

• Introduce character

• Develop character (Probably best to develop characters in ways the main plot can't/won't.)

• Create suspense

• Give information (I imagine this is where the nonessential background information could be revealed.)

• Create atmosphere

• Develop theme (An important one, side story stuff should be thematically similar to the rest of the plot.)

Personally, I like extra stuff that helps develop the characters/world/plot, but it should probably be optional.

[Alera]

I ,personally ,am a bit more for the gameplay. But it actually really-really-really depends on the type of game.
Generally- I could say I'm something like 65% gameplay and 35 story. But I want them mixed!!! And I like games with lots of choices~

And about the fillers- well I'm not against them. They usually add some more realism and atmosphere to the games. So it's ok, but really- if they say the same things all the time- that's annoying. If it changes over the time or after some events or they are useful for giving information- that's cool! If they are random- I think that could work too.

[kinougames]

About saying the same thing all the time, that strikes me as a game that didn't really put filler. Usually when you play RPGs or something, and you talk to the same person twice, they just repeat themselves. Part of the "filler" I had in mind involved that happening much less and giving other characters many more lines.

[Chrizine]

About saying the same thing all the time, that strikes me as a game that didn't really put filler. Usually when you play RPGs or something, and you talk to the same person twice, they just repeat themselves. Part of the "filler" I had in mind involved that happening much less and giving other characters many more lines.

Then "filler" is absolutely great!

[luminarious]

I don't play games for any other reason apart from the story. If the game gets in the way, I quit and am miserable for the rest of the day. I have only ever loved 2 games: Fallout 2 and Planescape: Torment. These had you playing the story, with the battles being more like minigames (in Fallout 2 with turn-based combat) or like action sequences (in Planescape, you're literally immortal!).

Also, filler is bad, m'kay. Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action. That's what Kurt Vonnegut said and I believe him.

[jack_norton]

But in both games there were quite some tough battles (if I remember correctly). I wouldn't call them minigames at all

[kinougames]

Also, filler is bad, m'kay. Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action. That's what Kurt Vonnegut said and I believe him.

But a lot of fillers do reveal character. Most of the Naruto fillers gave you a very in-depth look into the daily lives of many of the Naruto characters that got no actual personality in canon. Tenten is a prime example of a character who grew a personality (that I rather liked). My problem didn't come until the fillers started screwing with established canon.

[luminarious]

If it reveals character, then it's not filler. Luckily, in games it's a lot easier usually to integrate the character stories with the main flow. In anime, episodes seem to be focused on either the character or the story which is a silly way of dividing things.

[Kael]

I have only ever loved 2 games: Fallout 2 and Planescape: Torment. These had you playing the story, with the battles being more like minigames (in Fallout 2 with turn-based combat) or like action sequences (in Planescape, you're literally immortal!).

One of the bests. Mini-games might be fun and appealing, addictive if you'd like. A good storyline is never forgotten, its correct achievement may cause life changing experiences. It stays deep in the soul.

[kinougames]

I think in games it probably is easier, since there is only so must time and usually the story itself allows for side-quest extra-type stuff to happen that isn't necessarily all plot, but world-building and characterization.

I think most of the Naruto fandom would disagree that the fillers weren't filler. xD