How many BG's do commercial games normally have?

[DaFool]

Is there a way to reduce the love interests to just 4? (Corresponding to Clover, Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds)

Most $100 commercial games max out at 5 love interests... and they have hundreds of CGs. There are a few with dozens of characters, but they tend to be the 'Gotta rape em all' kinda games.

I'm pretty sure your future customers won't mind less love interests as long as they're more fleshed out and you can devote more CGs for each.

[Anna]

I see. Well, you have a very nice friend there. I wish you two lots of luck with completing it then.

To be fair, I checked my own finished project for reference which was also done in about a year with just me as the artist, and it has about 35 bgs and 120+ sprites (with different poses). If she does sprites with minimal poses it should save her a lot of work. It's still a looot of work though, especially with all the CGs included, so be prepared to take longer than a year for this!

[Mickychi]

Is there a way to reduce the love interests to just 4? (Corresponding to Clover, Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds)

Most $100 commercial games max out at 5 love interests... and they have hundreds of CGs. There are a few with dozens of characters, but they tend to be the 'Gotta rape em all' kinda games.

I'm pretty sure your future customers won't mind less love interests as long as they're more fleshed out and you can devote more CGs for each.

Whaa! Don't want to! I won't kill my characters!
I might think about lessoning the love interests another way though, like so many are avalible to go after but other's may not unless you get another file that is sold as an extentsion pack or something. I'm not sure what price the game will be sold for and probably wont decide till it's about finish, but it definately wont be $100 probably more like under $50 since it's my first commercial game.

I see. Well, you have a very nice friend there. I wish you two lots of luck with completing it then.

To be fair, I checked my own finished project for reference which was also done in about a year with just me as the artist, and it has about 35 bgs and 120+ sprites (with different poses). If she does sprites with minimal poses it should save her a lot of work. It's still a looot of work though, especially with all the CGs included, so be prepared to take longer than a year for this!

Ah yeah I am prepared for it to take longer than a year and that's fine with me if it's needed. As for some Bg's like the character you play as bedroom depending on what dorm you in it will be different but not too different just a few changes to color or pictures hanging on walls.

[Taleweaver]

Alright. Stop right there. You are working at a game you won't possibly finish with two people within a year. And no way are you going to release this commercially.

"Commercial" doesn't mean "people pay money to play this". "Commercial" means "I expect my earnings from this game to justify the effort I put into it."

Really, forget about attracting any sort of crowd with a price of $50-100. You're not a big-name publisher. You cannot afford to advertize this game the way SquareEnix or even Key can. Even if you manage to produce professional-grade quality (which I doubt seeing the material you released in your blog), you would need to find someone to actually market that for you. And really, I don't believe the big publishers would pick up what is essentially an indie production from someone with hardly any credentials.

The sheer number of assets you will need to achieve what you want should tell you that you are biting off more than you can swallow. Why don't you, for your first release, focus on finishing something on a smaller scale first - something you will have ready within 3-4 months that already shows off the sort of quality you're able to dish out? With something like that, you could convince big publishers to promote you for your major release.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I'd love to encourage you in what you're doing, but I cannot do that in good conscience.

[Mirage]

LMAO, please listen to everyone else, unless you want to be like me. Hey, I'm the one who's crazy enough to make 10 pursuable characters, 20+ side characters, 60+ BG, 200+ CG, 145.000 words, explorable maps, dozen of mini-games, and plenty animations to boot. It took me a whooping 3 years to complete, and I took at least 2 years of them as a full time job. I sold the game at a lousy price of 15 usd, and I don't even get money enough to feed me for a month. Please don't follow my path. You'll regret it.

(Speaking of which, I originally thought the development is going to take a year, too. Alas, it took 3 years. I heard someone telling me that estimation of time taken to complete a project is usually 3 times longer than expected, which is quite true in my case.)

[Celianna]

I'm the only one working on my project, which you seem to know about already, and I do all the art for it. It's been two years since I started my project, and all the character art for it still hasn't been finished (though luckily most maps are) - and that's with 1 pose only and about 18 characters that need to be done. Though to be fair I re-did the graphic style entirely since a year ago, so I really only have worked on it for a year. Anyways, that's just me as the only artist, and it's still not done.

Sure, you might be paying your friend, but it's a huge amount of workload, you have absolutely no idea. Especially backgrounds, those will suck up so much time, she'll probably drop out after making her second BG. You can't possibly expect her to make everything for you within a year, even if you're paying her. Hell, I take paid jobs for much more (I earn hundreds of euros) and I'd turn down this offer in a heart beat. I've also had so many offers of people wanting me on their team to complete their game, and they'd pay me a good price - but as the sole artist. I've turned down every single one of them, it's just way too much to expect.

Also, no one will pay anywhere near $50 for a commercial VN (the one who said $100 for a VN must be crazy, because I've never witnessed any game this day and age that costs that much, VN or not). Perhaps if you take away the zero, then maybe you could have a chance of selling it. Though I highly doubt you'll ever go commercial, you're dreaming too big here.

I recommend putting the project on hold, and going for something much, much smaller, and free as well. Just make a simple game, like with 3 characters, each with maybe two endings, 3k words for each character - and the art could be custom-made or taken from somewhere else. Just focus on finishing at least one project, then maybe you can dream bigger.

[AxemRed]

Also, no one will pay anywhere near $50 for a commercial VN (the one who said $100 for a VN must be crazy, because I've never witnessed any game this day and age that costs that much, VN or not).

$100 is a normal price for a AAA VN in Japan.

Mangagamer sells at $50, and they're doing reasonably well. But that's for well-known VNs from well-known developers, not some random person on the internet.

The random person on the internet price point is more like $10~$20

[Camille]

If you're asking a friend to do ALL THE ART for your game "for a cheap price", then I'm sorry, but I find it highly unlikely this project will ever get done. Even highly paid, commissioned artists would balk at this amount of work. There are many scenarios of friends offering to do things for people and then neglecting their "work" because they don't get enough for it.

Also, you don't have a finished game to your name yet to show that you personally have the dedication needed to finish such a long-term project, either, so I think it'd be very difficult to find other artists to do all this for you. Before worrying about the art, look at Anna's estimate for the BARE MINIMUM wordcount for the script you'll have to write. Can you write 200,000 words? Can you code and script all of it, too? With something like this, somewhere along the way you or your artist are going to be overwhelmed by the workload and will probably end up quitting. For your own good, I also highly recommend you put this project on hold and focus on finishing something much smaller first. You have two projects in your signature that were started 6 months ago—how far along are those? How are you handling the workload for those projects?

Somewhat OT, but maybe $100 is normal for a Japanese VN if you factor in shipping costs overseas and are buying limited edition versions, but in general I think even the AAA titles tend to only go for 5,000 - 7,000 yen, so hardly $100. I just bought a Japanese PS3 otome game the other day and the actual cost of it minus the shipping (I bought the limited edition) was 9,240 yen. The regular edition was only 7,140 yen and this is a console title. Most PC or handheld VNs cost much, much less—even in Japan.

[Mickychi]

Okay first Of all I do know that the project is going to take longer than one year to make.
Secondly the game probably will only be for $20 maybe less don't know yet.
Third the game will be split somehow so only four characters in the first release are romancable and only so many of the characters you can become friends with probably about half. Then there will be another release later on with the rest of the characters as an etentsion pack.
Fourth the amount of Bg's are just an etimate I probably will cut down them.
Fifth I might get some one else to do sprites to help her not sure yet, as for how much I'm paying her she might be getting some money as well from money the game makes.
And lastly please don't tell me to stop or put this project on hold on relise that it may take longer than expected, but I really want to make it however long it takes.

[Taleweaver]

And lastly please don't tell me to stop or put this project on hold on relise that it may take longer than expected, but I really want to make it however long it takes.

If you really want to finish it, then finish something smaller first and let the experience you get on that road help you with your big project. Please. I really want to see something of that huge scope completed, picked up by a major software house and distributed as a full-price game with ports for PS3 and Wii. (Mainly because I own a Wii.)

[Zatch]

To answer your question.. As many as they need! It varies from game to game. Don't worry about the artworks that got drop because you shrink your story. You can always place them somewhere else.

So, you want go commercial? Well, then I'm going to cheer you on then! Smaller project are weak... jk! Personally I can't do a small project because that isn't my forte and not enough room for the story..

Am I the only one that going to wish her luck? Let her do it if she wants! I know small project are more likely to be finish but at this point.. All I can see is small and simple games and they aren't pushing much.. How can we be taken more seriously if we keep working on a small and simple products and not aiming a little higher?

Knock them dead, Mickychi! I'm rooting for the underdog! AAA company mostly started as unknown names. I'm sending you alot of pm to check up on your progress, Mickychi. Not going to let this die out without giving alot of support!

[Sapphi]

I think nobody else is wishing her luck because we all know (largely from personal experience or observation) that projects like this tend to fizzle out after they leave the planning stage. It's one thing to say "The game will have this"; it's another thing entirely to live up to it.

Mickychi, I would just advise you about this: If you and your friend are seriously dedicated to your project and have minimal real life obligations, I believe you could accomplish something of this scope. But, (practicing) artists are always improving. Even within a year, the differences are noticeable for an amateur artist. What happens when the backgrounds or sprite art that your friend does now don't match up with the later ones? Is she going to have to go back and redo them? Will you leave them as they are, causing a style or quality inconsistency that may be off-putting to potential customers? Really think about it.

At the very least, like others have said in this thread, worry about your story before you commission much art, if any at all. You don't want to put in a lot of time and money only to realize it's not going to work out.

[Anna]

AAA company mostly started as unknown names.

And most have years upon years of experience by the time they become big.

[Mickychi]

To answer your question.. As many as they need! It varies from game to game. Don't worry about the artworks that got drop because you shrink your story. You can always place them somewhere else.

So, you want go commercial? Well, then I'm going to cheer you on then! Smaller project are weak... jk! Personally I can't do a small project because that isn't my forte and not enough room for the story..

Am I the only one that going to wish her luck? Let her do it if she wants! I know small project are more likely to be finish but at this point.. All I can see is small and simple games and they aren't pushing much.. How can we be taken more seriously if we keep working on a small and simple products and not aiming a little higher?

Knock them dead, Mickychi! I'm rooting for the underdog! AAA company mostly started as unknown names. I'm sending you alot of pm to check up on your progress, Mickychi. Not going to let this die out without giving alot of support!

Thank you for your support!

Alright I'll say this there actually is only going to be about 26 characters, and as for the bg's only the ones that I know need making are going to be made first other that turn out to be needed will be made when it's certain that they will be needed.

Also I thank everyone else for the warnings I understand your all just trying to help me not mess up but I really am determined to make the game.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Taleweaver is giving awesome advice.

Most professional VNs only have 20 or so locations or backgrounds, quite a few significantly less. Most of those are the same background at a different time of day. As a professional artist, even I am constantly revising my game script and design based on amount of workload. Like was pointed out, adding a single new character adds at least 4-5 more sprites. And do characters change clothes? Add another 5 sprites.

You'll quickly learn to start thinking more conservatively: "Does this scene really need to be in a new location? Wouldn't it work just as well in an existing location?" etc. It is best to plan your backgrounds so you get maximum use out of them, making sure each background is used as often as it can be. Do you need a school hallway at all if you have a classroom background, for example? Your characters can talk before or after class without leaving that room in many cases. The walk through the hallway is implied.

And as an artist that has been doing this a while, both as a hobby and as a professional, your time estimate for the project is always going to be wrong. It will always take longer. A project always takes twice as long as I project it to. So if your friend says she can do one sprite every 4 hours, it is more likely each sprite will take 8 hours. This formula - take the projected time everyone agrees and thinks it will take, and double it - holds up very well. I worked at a studio doing special effects for movies with budgets in the millions and professionals everywhere (we're talking James Cameron movies and the like), and we would estimate the time it would take us to complete a shot at say 3 weeks. It would end up at 6 weeks. "Hmm, this shot looks easy. 1 week. Everyone agree?" 2 weeks is what it took. I even had one shot that my team leader and I swore would be a 3 day job and it took us 4 WEEKS. The moral of all this is that even with a professional team that has done everything before, a proven production line, and millions of dollars, everything still takes longer than they think it will.

And yes, most artists would balk at doing 50-70 BGs. Backgrounds take longer than sprites, so if you friend says 4 hours a sprite (which we have already established will take longer), lets say she estimates BGs to take 8 hours. This probably means they'll take 12-16 hours apiece, but lets assume she is the most accurate artist in history at estimating how long she'll take on something. 70x8 is 560 hours. 50x8 is 450 hours. 20x8 is 160 hours. Or, to put it in more visceral terms: 70 BGs equals 23 whole days of her life, 50 = 19 whole days of her life, even 20 equals 1 whole week of her life. Just for the backgrounds.

And 26 characters? Let's say she is only doing one pose with only one expression for each, at her original 4 hours estimate. That 104 hours of her time.

I hope you are paying her WELL, because at my rates (which are cheap for professional artists), for her time estimates, for 50 BGs and 26 characters with only one pose and expression, you would owe me $14,000 dollars. And if I were being forced to lock into something as long term as your project (meaning I wouldn't have time to work with other clients) the price would probably go up to something like $22,000 dollars. This link to Canned Dogs blog showing professional visual novel costs is probably something you should look at. It costs them $150 to $500 for each regular BG for example.

So, don't take advantage of your friend.

I think doing something like Papillon is doing with Magical Diary is the best plan for you. Do one dorm per game, with just a handful of characters. Release it and sell it. Then make the next dorm and group of characters and sell it as an expansion pack. Rinse and repeat as many times as necessary, but don't go "whole hog" and try to do it all at once. There is a reason books and movies get released in trilogies or sections instead of waiting 10 years and putting out 5000 page novels or 10 hour movies.