The Ren'Py 6 Endgame

Discuss how to use the Ren'Py engine to create visual novels and story-based games. New releases are announced in this section.
Forum rules
This is the right place for Ren'Py help. Please ask one question per thread, use a descriptive subject like 'NotFound error in option.rpy' , and include all the relevant information - especially any relevant code and traceback messages. Use the code tag to format scripts.
Message
Author
User avatar
PyTom
Ren'Py Creator
Posts: 16096
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:58 am
Completed: Moonlight Walks
Projects: Ren'Py
IRC Nick: renpytom
Github: renpytom
itch: renpytom
Location: Kings Park, NY
Contact:

#16 Post by PyTom »

Rika-chan wrote: Isn't it a better practice to allow everything, and trust the authors do what is best, rather than treating them like children?
Well, I do allow most anything. Ren'Py is extensible in many ways, and you can always write something like this yourself.

The question is, what features do I spend my time on writing, testing, documenting, and supporting? I try to focus on features that I think will make better games.Specifically, visual novel games, and to a lesser extent dating sims. Those are the ones I like to spend my time on.

Now, I'm not an unreasonable person, or at least I don't think so. If you have a good use case for a non-interruptable pause, I'll be willing to listen and change my mind. (I know I have on several other things.) More likely I will suggest a way to get the same effect in a more user-friendly way. But I'm not going to spend my time on something I think will make games worse.

(I worry about uninterruptable pauses as something that will cause people to report bugs, as it would be hard for an end-user to distinguish this from Ren'Py becoming unresponsive.)
Supporting creators since 2004
(When was the last time you backed up your game?)
"Do good work." - Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
Software > Drama • https://www.patreon.com/renpytom

User avatar
PyTom
Ren'Py Creator
Posts: 16096
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:58 am
Completed: Moonlight Walks
Projects: Ren'Py
IRC Nick: renpytom
Github: renpytom
itch: renpytom
Location: Kings Park, NY
Contact:

#17 Post by PyTom »

Oh, re: the graphical stat meter, and the ease of use of the ui functions.

I agree that we don't have good documentation for the ui functions. The problem with this is that the ui functions are building blocks of user interfaces, and it's hard to document them properly because they can be put together in so many ways.

I'll try to throw together a cookbook recipe for a statbar. Do you have any suggestions as to what it should look like?
Supporting creators since 2004
(When was the last time you backed up your game?)
"Do good work." - Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
Software > Drama • https://www.patreon.com/renpytom

Zarcon
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:42 am
Contact:

#18 Post by Zarcon »

Uninteruptable pauses are good for faking action scenes and such. Skipping to the end of those by accident may spoil the mood or whatever.

Why not just make it so when you're skipping over previously read text the pauses don't kick in?

I figure that would be the best of both worlds. Most people going through a first run would wait anyway, while those who twitch and click by accident won't skip the sequence. Finally, any furthur playthroughs of that particular section the pause wouldn't kick in, allowing a person to skip without interuption.

It's what a few games do...unless I'm just imagining things. >.>;;

Or heck, add it to the options menu. "Allow forced game pauses? Yes/No"

[EDIT]

Actually, you could probably do that yourself now with a prompt at the begining of the game, a boolean variable, and an IF before the pause, haha.

User avatar
DaFool
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4171
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:39 pm
Contact:

#19 Post by DaFool »

I have a solid opinion on this subject:

SKIPPABLE IS GOOD :D

I like to put lots of animation and stuff, but when the time comes for testing a long piece for the 100th time, believe me, as a developer, you would want to skip through all the crap you just made yourself for yourself to go through.

monele
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4101
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:57 am
Location: France
Contact:

#20 Post by monele »

"Allow forced game pauses? Yes/No"
Another nice idea. If there can be an option to remove all transitions (which can totally break things in transition heavy games), why not this?

absinthe
Regular
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:26 am
Contact:

#21 Post by absinthe »

I'm not sure 'unskippable' is even necessary.

I mean, when I play a game for the first time, I usually let the game do what it wants to. I watch the intro without clicking, try to click slow so I get the full intended effect of any fades or dissolves, read everything carefully so I get a real 'experience' out of it, like a novel or a movie. What would not allowing me to skip accomplish, since I'm not going to anyway?

And people who aren't that careful or who read very quickly might sit through the forced scenes, or they might just say, meh, get ON with it and, after a couple forced scenes, decide it's not worth it to keep playing.

I think it's ultimately up to the developer how much control he requires over the finished game, and how much of the audience he's willing to alienate over retaining that control.

Oh, and I have to say, one of my favorite things about Ren'Py is how customizable it is. I have yet to run into a single thing I wanted to do, however weird, that I couldn't with a little digging around in the docs, poking at Python, and creative thinking. It's awesome. :)
My 2007 NaNo entry: Eidolon

monele
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4101
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:57 am
Location: France
Contact:

#22 Post by monele »

Let's make a supposition... Let's say a gamemaker creates a really great game with quite a few non-interactive sequences (probably animated or at least with some synchronisation).

You're a patient player : you won't click through sequences like crazy and will enjoy the game as envisioned by the creator. No problem.

You're impatient/fast reader/clumsy : you will click through the sequences which, with the new "skip every non-interactive part" feature, will make you miss the whole sequence.
If you're impatient, well, that's a lesson to be patient :).
If you're a fast reader, it's a bit annoying (I'm thinking fixed speed unskippable text, and not animations).
If you're clumsy, it's very annoying and not really your fault (I'm one of these nervously-clicks-the-right-button people, so I know how bad it is @_@).
What can help you : the rollback feature. You can go back and look at the scene properly this time. If you're still clicking through it, you just *don't* get it ô_o. But ok... clicking through a long scene could kill the mood. I'll assume the player is not ill-intended but just wanted to go a bit faster or messed up, hence we should try to protect this kind of player.


- Solution 1 -

Prevent from skipping these scenes. Clicking won't make things go further, nor skip a whole scene.

Problem :
- I'm playing for the second time and will have to go through all this again... this is annoying. Let's not even talk about the third or fourth times :).

- Solution 2 -

Prevent from skipping these scenes only the first time they're seen. Ctrl-skip does use this knowledge, so it's possible.

Problem :
- I have had any sort of problem with my computer and had to reinstall the game, losing my saves in the process... Or I installed it on another machine which doesn't have the saves (at a friend's for example). I *will* have to go through the scenes and won't be able to skip, even though I *have* seen them... It's just that the game isn't aware of it.

- Solution 3 -

Have another command to skip through usually-unskippable stuff. Ctrl-skip for example?

Problem : one problem I can see is that you can't control the skipping very well and might go too far when you just want to skip a single part.

- Solution 4 -

Have an option that lets you disable the "unskippable" protection. It should be enabled by default, so that new players don't skip important stuff. Once you know the game and don't want this restriction anymore, you disable it and are able to skip through things with a simple click.
The creator is assured that players who are unaware of the power of a click (or clumsy) won't miss things. The player who doesn't want to be restricted in such ways just needs to switch an option and go on his merry way.

Problem : the savvy player who will be frustrated by the game preventing him from skipping a scene because he doesn't know about the option. Mini-solution : advertise the option?



I see this debate going on and on... and I really want a solution to be found. A solution that wouldn't make any party more powerful than the other if possible.
So, if creators want to add a protection... let them do it (adding the pause thingie). If the player then *really* wants to remove it, for any kind of reason... let him do it too (option switch).
This should prevent an unaware player of spoiling his own fun. This should prevent bad makers from ruining a game by blocking too much stuff. This will allow creators to provide the default experience they want... and players to get the customized experience they really want.

Comments appreciated ^.^

User avatar
PyTom
Ren'Py Creator
Posts: 16096
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:58 am
Completed: Moonlight Walks
Projects: Ren'Py
IRC Nick: renpytom
Github: renpytom
itch: renpytom
Location: Kings Park, NY
Contact:

#23 Post by PyTom »

I don't like the idea of adding a new option to the game. We already have too many options, and we're running out of room on the options page. One day I want to add per-character voice support, with check boxes to enable and disable voice... If I do that, then we'll come very close to being totally out of space on the preferences page.
Supporting creators since 2004
(When was the last time you backed up your game?)
"Do good work." - Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
Software > Drama • https://www.patreon.com/renpytom

monele
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4101
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:57 am
Location: France
Contact:

#24 Post by monele »

What about solution 2 and solution 3 then? Unskippable the first time unless you press Ctrl and have "skip all messages" checked. Clickable normally from then on.

Remember that I'd usually be on the "never block anything" side, but many makers are asking for it and I see their reason... hence the uh... diplomatic arrangement? o_O...

User avatar
PyTom
Ren'Py Creator
Posts: 16096
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:58 am
Completed: Moonlight Walks
Projects: Ren'Py
IRC Nick: renpytom
Github: renpytom
itch: renpytom
Location: Kings Park, NY
Contact:

#25 Post by PyTom »

Well, mugenjohncel gave me a convincing use case for this feature, so I'm thinking of adding it with something like the following semantics:

The interface will be a new parameter to renpy.pause(). When renpy.pause is run with this new parameter true, we first check to see if we are skipping, and if we are eligible to skip this statement. If we are, then it's skipped, no questions asked. If we're not, then an pause occurs that can only be interrupted by engaging skip.

This will be documented as being something that should be used rarely, with "with Pause()" being strongly preferred to synchronize effects, since this is still fairly user-hostile.

The pause doesn't take effect if the user is skipping around surrounding text, which I think makes sense, and solves most of the use cases Monele mentioned. Also, one can't use the pause as part of normal dialogue, which eliminates the worst problem I see... I don't want people putting a normal dialogue window up on the screen, and preventing the user from clicking through it. This method will require the use of show text, which I think is appropriate.
Supporting creators since 2004
(When was the last time you backed up your game?)
"Do good work." - Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
Software > Drama • https://www.patreon.com/renpytom

monele
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 4101
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:57 am
Location: France
Contact:

#26 Post by monele »

Sounds very good ^^

User avatar
mugenjohncel
Hentai Poofter
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:13 pm
Organization: Studio Mugenjohncel
Location: Philippines
Contact:

#27 Post by mugenjohncel »

Well, mugenjohncel gave me a convincing use case for this feature, so I'm thinking of adding it
Mr. K
Hey Lucy!... Read this quote!

Lucy
Uh... does this mean?...

Mr. K
Yes!... We finally get to see you (INSERT LONG BEEP HERE) uninterupted.

Lucy
Geh!...

To be continued...

Jake
Support Hero
Posts: 3826
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:28 pm
Contact:

#28 Post by Jake »

mugenjohncel wrote: Mr. K
Yes!... We finally get to see you (INSERT LONG BEEP HERE) uninterupted.
...carefully construct a house of cards?
Server error: user 'Jake' not found

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot]