Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

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inkbrush
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Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#1 Post by inkbrush »

Hello, Lemmasoftians!

Today I would like to bring up the Your Princess is in Another Castle trope, also known as the "False Ending" trope.


To summarize it to those who don't want to read up on the tvtropes page:

The "Your Princess is in Another Castle" trope is where you think the story is coming to an end and wrapping up but then BAM!
There's more!
The plot has been resolved... but the work isn't actually over yet. Before long, there's a twist thrown in. Alternately the plot looks all resolved, and we've almost reached the end, so it actually seems like everything's working out... but then the writers pull a Cliff Hanger situation to finish everything off.

A good number of people don't like this sort of thing while, say . . . Playing a game. (Considering that this is a visual novel forum, we'll use games as our example!) A lot prefer there to be a singular villain and are actually displeased when there turns out to be more to the story than they had thought. But, on the other hand, there are some who actually enjoy it. I am a part of the people who enjoy the twist, given that it's done well. If it's a game that I adore, having it revealed that there's more to the story is the greatest feeling in the world. But, on the other hand, if it's a game that I wasn't really enjoying, I would probably stop playing the game at that point.

So, what's your take on the trope?

And to get into more specifics of what makes the trope work or not, let's talk about what might make a twist more appealing than not!

For me personally, the things that would make it enjoyable are: A) strong characters that I like and care about; B) strong world building with more lore surrounding the characters to be revealed; C) a general curiosity of what's going to happen next; D) more of a focus on everything that happens in-between the introduction to the ending, rather than having a strong end-goal that you're playing towards (obviously still having some sort of a goal you're going towards, but it's not the absolute main driving force . . . not sure if I'm getting my thoughts across on this one, we'll see with how all of you respond).

So, what makes this trope appealing or what makes it less appealing to you?


I look forward to discussing this topic with my fellow visual novel creators!

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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#2 Post by Kuiper »

Readers demand a sense of progress. Nearly every time I've felt bored with a story, it's because there was some "lull" where it didn't feel like any of the characters were failing to move toward their intended goal. (This is part of why it's so difficult to write a story about a character dealing with depression.) The audience wants to feel like we are marching toward some conclusion. The "video game" way to do it is the way that Zelda does: "Collect the six medallions!" or "Rescue the seven maidens!" It allows you to have a continuous through-line toward a singular goal even as you explore a variety of different scenarios and settings. It feels like every scene is moving us toward the conclusion of the story.

Constantly moving the goalposts violates our sense of progress. "Your princess is in another castle" is perhaps the most egregious of this, because it effectively says, "Haha, you thought you were getting closer to your goal, but it was actually all for naught! Your efforts in this castle were a complete waste! You're no closer to your goal than when you entered this castle!" Note, however, that "moving the goalposts" isn't the same thing as "changing goals." For example, in the film Star Wars, Luke Skywalker's goals escalate as the story goes on. When Luke and friends get captured and trapped on board the Death Star, Luke's goal is "escape." Then, when he discovers that Leia is trapped on board, the goal becomes "rescue the princess." Finally, after they escape, the goal becomes "blow up the Death Star to save the rebels who are under attack." With each escalation, the stakes increase. When Luke and friends succeed in rescuing the princess, their story isn't over yet; there's another mission that they have to complete. But we still feel like we've made forward progress.

The latest episode of the Writing Excuses podcast delves into this subject. I highly recommend giving it a listen.

As an aside, I actually don't have a problem with being told "Your princess is in another castle" in the context of a game like Mario, because when I'm playing a Mario game, I'm not playing because I want to rescue the princess. I'm playing because I enjoy pressing the A button to jump and bounce on goomba's heads. So the "fake ending" actually is a small delight, because moving the goalposts back actually means I get more of what I came for. Mario isn't really a plot-driven game, and as such general principles of plotting don't really apply to it. And Mario provides us with a sense of progress on a different level, because when we clear world 1, we get to advance to world 2, and clearly going from 1 to 2 is a sign of foward progress, even if we didn't succeed in rescuing the princess.


There's a point to be made here about the mystery genre, where you often have "red herrings" and other places where characters pursue the wrong conclusion, only to discover, "Sorry, this suspect is actually innocent; the real murderer is hiding in another castle." So all of the time that we spent chasing this suspect is effectively "wasted" because they weren't the real killer. Except it really isn't. The mystery is set up so that we anticipate and expect uncertainty, so we're really not all that suprised when the first suspect turns out to be innocent. In fact, finding suspects innocent can actually feed into our sense of progress. If we begin the story with a list of eight suspects, one way to find the real killer is by process of elimination. Every suspect that we cross off the list gets us one step closer to discovering the real killer. There's also the fact that the pursuit of a red herring is not all for naught. Often, we discover that the suspect is innocent, but in the process of chasing him (or possibly interrogating him after the fact), the detective gathers one more clue or critical piece of evidence that allows them to re-orient themselves and begin marching in the right direction. It never feels like we are "marching backwards" or "running in place," because if the story is done well, even the time "wasted" chasing red herrings gets us closer to solving the mystery.

Mysteries get away with red herrings and false information to mislead the reader, because that is the entire point of a whodunnit story. Reader expectations are already prepared for surprise. They want there to be a surprise, otherwise they wouldn't have picked up a mystery novel. The reader reaction is never, "Oh wow, I wasn't expecting there to be a surprise," it's always, "Oh wow, I wasn't expecting you to surprise me in that way." You can surprise the reader by fulfilling their expectations in unexpected ways. By setting up the story as a murder mystery, the author has already primed audience's expectations, so when their expectations are subverted, it feels like you are fulfilling a promise, not breaking it.

If a "plot twist" frustrates readers, it's probably because it wasn't foreshadowed properly. If you want to set up a "main villain" and then later reveal that he's not really the "big bad" and is actually just a puppet in a larger scheme, you have to plant those seeds of doubt early. When your reader gets to the big reveal, the reaction you want is, "OF COURSE! The writing was on the wall the whole time! How did I not see that coming?" If your readers say, "What the heck? That came out of nowhere," then it means you're doing something wrong.
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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#3 Post by SundownKid »

I think it can be done well and done badly. Done well, it surprises the player and makes them excited for what's coming next. Done badly, it annoys the player that all their progress was for nothing and the goalpost has been moved. In other words, it depends on how contrived it feels. If some random guy appears out of nowhere and becomes the new main villain, it's likely that the player feels shafted. It has to make sense in terms of the story and also switch things up.

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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#4 Post by Kailoto »

Like Kuiper mentioned, it really depends on whether or not I want to see "more" of the story. Also relevant is whether or not the story is evolving; are we entering a new chapter where the stakes are higher and the rules are different, or is it going to be more of the same? Because with the former, this trope is really just one of many different possible conjunctions between the two phases, and so as long as it's executed well, it'll be interesting. But if you're simply using it as a way to preserve and extend the status quo, then there needs to be something that keeps me coming back. If the story relies on suspense and buildup, I'll get exhausted too fast.

So, if your story isn't evolving, I have to like what I already have and want more of it. It's the difference between conflict-based suspense, and the overall atmosphere of the work.

To illustrate the difference, I'll take two manga that I've been a fan of for a long time: Nisekoi and Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun. Both are (ostensibly) romantic comedies built off of shoujo tropes, and both have bupkis in the progress department. The main couple never admits their feelings for each other, or they try to but with horrible timing, or they cause misunderstandings that put them back at square one. The difference is that with Nozaki-kun, I'm reading it for the comedy; I don't need romantic progression, as simply enjoying the characters' antics is enough. Whereas with Nisekoi, I was in it for the romance... and after a while, it became clear that the "goal" of having an open relationship between the two would forever be moved back as more and more contrived obstacles are thrown in the way. I loved both stories when they initially came out; a few years later, and I've dropped Nisekoi but still read Nozaki-kun.
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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#5 Post by Ozitiho »

I adore it. In Tales of Symphonia, I thought I was finished when I opened all the seals. Only to have my expectations slashed and what I thought was a simple fantasy game was suddenly and completely unexpectedly a deep and philosophical tale of war. For the longest time I called this my favorite game.In Kill La Kill, every time you thought the heroine completed anything, she was suddenly faced with adversaries far greater than what there was before. A lot of people hated this, but I couldn't get enough. Every time it happened I was gasping and asking how far they can go.

But these are only the good examples. Kailoto mentioned Nisekoi and Nozaki-kun, I actually had the exact same experience with these. Except I only watched the anime. And I got super mad in Nozaki-kun at the fireworks scene. Sure it was funny, but god damn you really had my heart beating!

So here's my two cents: If you're building up to a conclusion, only to surprise the reader with a twist, the twist has to be worth something. I think "Your princess is in another castle" means the buildup was for nothing and you have to start over. No one wants this kind of useless plot extension. Especially when you were actually invested in saving the princess. If instead it went: "Your princess was actually the bad guy the whole time and is now the new final boss" there's something I can dig.

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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#6 Post by Kailoto »

Ozitiho wrote:But these are only the good examples. Kailoto mentioned Nisekoi and Nozaki-kun, I actually had the exact same experience with these. Except I only watched the anime. And I got super mad in Nozaki-kun at the fireworks scene. Sure it was funny, but god damn you really had my heart beating!
That's something I heard about the anime a lot, and it seemed to be the only flaw agreed upon by everyone. They played up the shoujo moments a lot more, which misleads the viewer into the type of story it is... as someone who'd been reading the manga pretty much ever since it started, I knew exactly what type of story it was from the start, and to me it was just a pleasing adaptation. It was because of my preconceived notions that I didn't experience the frustration.

So I guess another piece of advice is to be aware of what the tone is, and to make sure it matches up with how you want the expectations of the audience to go.
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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#7 Post by KuroOneHalf »

Ozitiho wrote:In Kill La Kill, every time you thought the heroine completed anything, she was suddenly faced with adversaries far greater than what there was before. A lot of people hated this, but I couldn't get enough. Every time it happened I was gasping and asking how far they can go.
I can't speak for others, but for me what I really disliked about that part of Kill La Kill was how vapid the fights were. There is not an ounce of strategy involved in them. It always went - Ryuko: Oh no, this boss is too strong, I can't beat him -> power up -> boss: Oh no, she's too strong -> power up -> Ryuko: Oh no, he's stronger yet again -> power up. Repeat ad nauseam.

Each milestone in a typical competition story revolves around the main character being faced with a challenge he doesn't know how to overcome, and him attempting to figure out ways to solve it, usually in the form of finding the enemy's weak spot and adapting one's play/fight style to exploit it. In every single fight in Hajime no Ippo, race in Initial D, etc, they're always learning and applying new techniques during battle. They're not just inexplicably powering up, but using reason and logic (in addition to skill/strength) in order to fundamentally better their skills and win. They're solving puzzles. Ryuko (and everyone else in that show) shows virtually none of this, which made battles wholly unexciting after the first few, as you knew exactly what was going to happen in subsequent battles and there was nothing interesting about it. It's decent visual fodder, but poor food for the mind.

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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#8 Post by Enigma »

Kuroonehalf wrote:
Ozitiho wrote:In Kill La Kill, every time you thought the heroine completed anything, she was suddenly faced with adversaries far greater than what there was before. A lot of people hated this, but I couldn't get enough. Every time it happened I was gasping and asking how far they can go.
I can't speak for others, but for me what I really disliked about that part of Kill La Kill was how vapid the fights were. There is not an ounce of strategy involved in them. It always went - Ryuko: Oh no, this boss is too strong, I can't beat him -> power up -> boss: Oh no, she's too strong -> power up -> Ryuko: Oh no, he's stronger yet again -> power up. Repeat ad nauseam.

Each milestone in a typical competition story revolves around the main character being faced with a challenge he doesn't know how to overcome, and him attempting to figure out ways to solve it, usually in the form of finding the enemy's weak spot and adapting one's play/fight style to exploit it. In every single fight in Hajime no Ippo, race in Initial D, etc, they're always learning and applying new techniques during battle. They're not just inexplicably powering up, but using reason and logic (in addition to skill/strength) in order to fundamentally better their skills and win. They're solving puzzles. Ryuko (and everyone else in that show) shows virtually none of this, which made battles wholly unexciting after the first few, as you knew exactly what was going to happen in subsequent battles and there was nothing interesting about it. It's decent visual fodder, but poor food for the mind.
That's just how magical girl shows tend to work though. though you did basically explain why Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is my favorite anime/manga series ever.

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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#9 Post by inkbrush »

Kuiper wrote:Constantly moving the goalposts violates our sense of progress.
I definitely agree. I think Ozitiho made an excellent point as well:
Ozitiho wrote:I think "Your princess is in another castle" means the buildup was for nothing and you have to start over. No one wants this kind of useless plot extension. Especially when you were actually invested in saving the princess. If instead it went: "Your princess was actually the bad guy the whole time and is now the new final boss" there's something I can dig.
SundownKid also made a very important note:
SundownKid wrote:Done badly, it annoys the player that all their progress was for nothing and the goalpost has been moved.
Let me just point out a specific part of that quote: "it annoys the player that all their progress was for nothing . . ."

So, I don't think necessarily that "moving the goalposts" is what violates our sense of progress, but more so that the way it's done can violate our sense of progress. (Along with the many other victims of the "how's it done" case) Because, I mean, who likes being told that they just wasted a bunch of time?

So, continuing off of SundownKid's post--definitely, if you just throw some random new enemy in without any reason, that would annoy players. But, if done carefully, it can possibly even enhance the plot.





Kailoto wrote:The difference is that with Nozaki-kun, I'm reading it for the comedy; I don't need romantic progression, as simply enjoying the characters' antics is enough. Whereas with Nisekoi, I was in it for the romance... and after a while, it became clear that the "goal" of having an open relationship between the two would forever be moved back as more and more contrived obstacles are thrown in the way. I loved both stories when they initially came out; a few years later, and I've dropped Nisekoi but still read Nozaki-kun.
Kailoto wrote:They played up the shoujo moments a lot more, which misleads the viewer into the type of story it is
I think this is very important and interesting topic to bring up!

I've never read Nozaki-kun, nor Nisekoi. But, I'm assuming that Nisekoi just played up more on the romance in the beginning which is why the lack of progress in the romance department really hurt it.

And setting the tone is definitely a good way to try to gain some control over why the readers are reading the story. I can see how setting it up in the beginning to be romance but then never progressing the romance can make someone frustrated.

I definitely have some experience with this type of thing myself. I used to watch the anime Naruto Shippuden but I ended up dropping it eventually do to the vast amount of fillers that kept coming out. I was definitely watching it more for the story progression and because I wanted to know what was going to happen to these characters. And the fillers did the opposite for me than what I wanted. (And before it's brought up, I do know that the amount of filler episodes was because they had to be waiting for the manga to update and such.) Sure, I loved learning about the character's backstories but not completely minor ones. Not to mention that the fillers tend to revolve around the secondary characters. If there were more episodes about the main characters, whom I was attached and WANTED to know more about, then I possibly would have stayed. But the biggest problem was the feeling of the lack of progression.

On the other hand, there are stories that are meant to turn your expectations on their head. Madoka Magica, for example. It starts off giving you the impression of being just another magical girl anime, but then it flips around and it actually becomes rather dark. What exactly makes people keep watching even though the tone has done a 180?





Ozitiho wrote:and what I thought was a simple fantasy game was suddenly and completely unexpectedly a deep and philosophical tale of war.
I think this is one of the strongest things you can do if you extend the plot past the expected "end" point.

One of my all-time favorite games did something similar: Okami. (The original, at least)
There was a good amount of lore already in the game before the first turning point. And it seemed like the appropriate amount at the time. But, as the story progressed, you learned more and more about both the characters and the world you were in. The story went from being about an eight-headed serpent who was tormenting the land to being a story about HOW this creature even got into this world in the first place! And all it really took to move the player was the curiosity about what that swirling black mist that rose from every boss and headed over the horizon was all about. It made you ask "What?" and "Why?" and that was a strong point about how Okami did this trope successfully. (Or, in my opinion, at least.)



Woo, okay. Long post.

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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#10 Post by kitsubasa »

I think one way of making this trope acceptable which hasn't really come up is when you reach the 'Princess', only for the protagonist to realise she wasn't the conclusion they wanted. Something similar got brought up by Kuiper in relation to Star Wars, but to better explain it with an example I enjoyed...

My favourite game, Shadow Hearts: Covenant, begins by setting up two apparent problems for the protagonist Yuri. The first is that he has been cursed by a cult to lose his soul. The second is that he is dealing with crippling depression following the death of his girlfriend. For most of the game, he tries to solve the first problem -- but when he gets rid of the cult, he realises he'd been using them to try and cope with his depression, assuming that if he got out and saved the world again it would distract from his dismal personal life. This shifts his goalpost, because he realises that the second problem was his main focus all along, and it hasn't been resolved yet.

In this sort of scenario, the shifting of the goalposts comes because the protagonist realises they'd misplaced them, while the signs of their actual endpoint have been around the entire time. Because it's not a sudden reveal of external information that prolongs the quest (ie. 'sorry, there's a final boss you've never heard of before', 'sorry, you're not in the right place) but a clarification/realisation of preexisting character traits, I think it makes things easier to get on board with from an audience perspective. It's an 'oh, I didn't think about that' rather than an 'oh, this hasn't come up at all, what?'. In SH:C I remember sharing that hollow feeling with Yuri once the cult was gone, and wondering what I needed to do to actually finish his quest. It can create a powerful moment of identification if it's handled right.
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Re: Your Princess is in Another Castle Trope Discussion

#11 Post by Kailoto »

inkbrush wrote:-snip-
Yeah, Nisekoi played up the romance much further. Which was a shame, because Naoshi Komi has such great pacing that the suspenseful parts really knocked it out of the park. That might also have lead to his downfall, though, because continual suspense with no payoff tires the reader out. I really enjoyed it when I first started it, but the longer it went on, the less enjoyable it became.

Okami is a great example of that - I think there were two or three times in the game where you would think, "Okay, that's the end of the story," but then an entirely new arc would open up. In the case of Okami, I think it was less "your princess is in another castle" and more "you've rescued the princess, but now you need to rescue the king" and then "you've rescued the king, now you need to defeat the source of all evil." Each new section was additive, so it never felt like you were rehashing the same old journey.


On the topic of works like Kill la Kill and Naruto Shippuden... well, that's shounen for you. I mean, let's be honest, I didn't watch Kill la Kill for the plot, I watched it because Imaishi and Ohtsuka make lovely fight scenes that really pop. And even then, I was only able to do so because I knew it would be over in twenty-four episodes; I can't watch the long-running ones because there's never an end.
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