Myst, Riven, and Obduction

[Gear]

My very first video game love was Myst.

For those of you who never played (or perhaps are too young to remember), Myst was a game that turned video gaming on its ear for a while. With no instructions, no HUD, and no explanations, players were dropped into an artwork-laden interactive slideshow, and their only option was to explore.

There was no death, no guns, no enemies, no traps. Three NPCs existed in the game, and communication with them was extremely limited. You had to explore and solve puzzles to advance.

Did the game have appeal? It was the top-selling PC game from 1993-2002. Its sequels sold very highly as well. But like all good things, it had to come to an end, and after releasing Myst V: End of Ages, Cyan Worlds (the games' creators) stepped back into obscurity. The Myst series had simultaneously revived and killed the Adventure Game genre, and the creators, satisfied with what they'd done, ended their run with the series. But now they've come back, apparently.

After a successful Kickstarter campaign, Cyan has announced a new game, Obduction. I am beyond excited. Myst was a game I used as my baseline for judging every game that came after (which is why games like Halo and CoD score so lowly with me). Obduction is being marketed as a spiritual successor to Myst, with the same layout and general premise. The Myst series was inspirational to me, having gotten me into video gaming in general. I actually have plans to create a Myst-like game after I'm finished with my current project, and Myst's style played a role in my current project as well.

That said, do games like Myst and Obduction have a chance of returning? Recent attempts to bring back old adventure titles like Monkey Island ended in relative failure. Can modern gamers still enjoy these types of games, or has their time passed? Have you played any of these types of games, and if so, what effects have they had on you as a game developer?

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Recent attempts to bring back old adventure titles like Monkey Island ended in relative failure. Can modern gamers still enjoy these types of games, or has their time passed?

Monkey Island's new game ended in relative failure? I thought it was a big hit for Telltale Games, and it was certainly well reviewed.

That said, do games like Myst and Obduction have a chance of returning?

One of the problems with with Myst is that it traded heavily at the time of its release on graphics. It came out at the dawn of the CD-ROM era (and according to most, helped sell CD drives) and was one of the most amazing things graphically that most people had seen on a PC up to that point. Which was possible, as you say, by everything being a pre-rendered slideshow, with clever navigation hiding the fact you were not truly in a 3D environment.

The sales of the series have never really matched with the original game. But that's because of another reason: the game's cerebral nature. While most of the people who bought Myst were doing so because it was the graphical amazement of it's day, fans stayed on because of the thinking and puzzles involved. But that lost a significant chunk of the original audience as well. Several of Myst's puzzles were brutally hard. I've been playing since launch, and I cannot, to this day, solve the rocket ship music puzzle, even with walkthrus and the solution. Because it requires you to have enough musical training to hear half-tones, and some people are not musically trained to differentiate between pitches, and other people are medically tone-deaf. I've never scene the Age the rocket takes you to. When people can't solve your game with a guidebook, you might have a problem.

It looks like Obduction claims it will have everything in the game needed to solve the puzzles, but that doesn't necessarily reassure me - the same could have been said of the rocket puzzle above. After all the game gave you the keys to press in a library book and a harpsichord to get the notes, but that didn't help a lot of people. The game still required outside experience. It is either the easiest puzzle in the game if you have a musical ear, or the hardest and most impossible if you don't. Argh. That puzzle still infuriates me 20 years later....

Have you played any of these types of games, and if so, what effects have they had on you as a game developer?

As you've gathered, yes, I've played Myst and these types of games. Heck, I spent a lot of time wandering around Myst in 1993. But though I enjoy adventure games and exploration, I never really got into any of the other games after Riven. The puzzles in the Myst series just seem so ... arbitrary. They are puzzles for the sake of puzzles, and not in service to a storyline or narrative logic. Maybe the puzzle design improved as the series went on, I don't know. I have a feeling it was the opposite - the audience that stuck around would be in love with the puzzles and would have solved all previous puzzles, so I'm sure the tendency would have been to go more difficult as the games progressed.

Myst's biggest selling point to me back in the day was immersing me in what felt like a 3D world and left me to explore. For me (admittedly an early teen at the time) the puzzles, while occasionally interesting, mostly served as annoying roadblocks. But a LOT of other games have supplanted that role for me now. 3D worlds to explore and immerse myself in are great in number. Games like the Bioshock series fulfill a lot of the itch that Myst originally did.

I guess Myst's most lasting legacy for me is that it has ensured I always think about puzzle design. I mostly agree with Ron Gilbert of Monkey Island fame - puzzles should advance the story, and you should never find a solution before you've found the problem. Goals and objectives also need to be clear - which is where I think Myst really falls apart. The player has no goal beyond exploration - especially at the start. Eventually they may get the goal of seeing the story conclusion, but some player's may never find the story. (Beyond that weird intro that tells you nothing.)

I guess, TL:DR:
Myst was titan of it's time, but newer games have long beat it at its own game and I'm not sure the series or style of gameplay offers anything particular unique anymore.

EDIT:
I should add, I'd love to see more well-done games in the same style. If you have a cohesive story and good puzzle design, I'd certainly still play a game in this genre. I just don't think the Myst series itself has much currency anymore.

[Gear]

Monkey Island's new game ended in relative failure? I thought it was a big hit for Telltale Games, and it was certainly well reviewed.

I keep seeing bad reviews for it myself, not to mention the original creators who worked on MI 1-2 not liking the continuity. Of course, that could just be the reviews I've seen.

I've been playing since launch, and I cannot, to this day, solve the rocket ship music puzzle, even with walkthrus and the solution. Because it requires you to have enough musical training to hear half-tones, and some people are not musically trained to differentiate between pitches, and other people are medically tone-deaf. I've never scene the Age the rocket takes you to. When people can't solve your game with a guidebook, you might have a problem.

Oddly, I never had an issue with that puzzle. It was the easiest one for me, and I've always considered myself tone-deaf. I guess I just was lucky? Then again, I was 7 years old and barely remember.

Also, the Rocketship Age was called Selentic. In case you were curious. If you hated the entry into the age, you would have hated the age itself- the entire age was sound-based puzzles. Me, personally, I had more trouble with Channelwood since I was terrible at drawing maps for redirecting the water around.

The puzzles in the Myst series just seem so ... arbitrary. They are puzzles for the sake of puzzles, and not in service to a storyline or narrative logic.

I disagree with you here, personally. The puzzles to me made sense; they were mostly security systems from a bygone era. When I think of arbitrary puzzles, I think of Professor Layton, where you can't enter a secret chamber until you figure out how many pies you need to sell in order to make a profit one day.

Myst's biggest selling point to me back in the day was immersing me in what felt like a 3D world and left me to explore. For me (admittedly an early teen at the time) the puzzles, while occasionally interesting, mostly served as annoying roadblocks. But a LOT of other games have supplanted that role for me now. 3D worlds to explore and immerse myself in are great in number. Games like the Bioshock series fulfill a lot of the itch that Myst originally did.

I agree with you on the exploration part, but despite not playing Bioshock, I don't think any other game has filled this void for me. The case could be made for the Elder Scrolls or Fallout games - they give you a vast expanse to explore. Unfortunately, they're rife with enemies and many different ways to die (especially in Fallout), and don't just let you explore freely at your own pace without worrying about anything. I dislike action games - I'm definitely a member of a niche in this way - so the ability to explore a new world in a cerebral fashion without fear of death or failure was a unique experience - and it kind of continues to be for the most part. Also, the exploration was never hindered by numerous NPCs or cutscenes. It was all just there for you, moving at whatever pace you wanted, with no interruptions unless you just really drank too much coffee before you started.

I guess Myst's most lasting legacy for me is that it has ensured I always think about puzzle design. I mostly agree with Ron Gilbert of Monkey Island fame - puzzles should advance the story, and you should never find a solution before you've found the problem. Goals and objectives also need to be clear - which is where I think Myst really falls apart. The player has no goal beyond exploration - especially at the start. Eventually they may get the goal of seeing the story conclusion, but some player's may never find the story. (Beyond that weird intro that tells you nothing.)

I'll agree with you there - I can see how people would not get the story. As someone who played all six games and read all three novels, I understand the story thoroughly. Although, you get the full gist of the story (at least the parts applicable to you) by the end of Myst IV: Revelations. But I think the charm of Myst was NOT knowing what your goal was, because it kept a sense of wonder and mystery not frequently captured in modern gaming. There's no mystery in newer games to me.

I should add, I'd love to see more well-done games in the same style. If you have a cohesive story and good puzzle design, I'd certainly still play a game in this genre. I just don't think the Myst series itself has much currency anymore.

Well, here's hoping. *cracks knuckles*

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Monkey Island's new game ended in relative failure? I thought it was a big hit for Telltale Games, and it was certainly well reviewed.

I keep seeing bad reviews for it myself, not to mention the original creators who worked on MI 1-2 not liking the continuity. Of course, that could just be the reviews I've seen.

Telltale's Monkey Island game was a LOT better than Monkey Island 3 and 4. In fact, continuity-wise it seemed to ignore most of 3&4, though Guybrush and Elaine are already married when the story starts. I'm not sure what the original creators didn't like - the humor and characters were very consistent to 1&2 (which I'd replayed recently due to their HD remakes). The puzzle design was some of the best in the series. If you are a fan of the originals, definitely pick it up.

I've been playing since launch, and I cannot, to this day, solve the rocket ship music puzzle, even with walkthrus and the solution. Because it requires you to have enough musical training to hear half-tones, and some people are not musically trained to differentiate between pitches, and other people are medically tone-deaf. I've never scene the Age the rocket takes you to. When people can't solve your game with a guidebook, you might have a problem.

Oddly, I never had an issue with that puzzle. It was the easiest one for me, and I've always considered myself tone-deaf. I guess I just was lucky? Then again, I was 7 years old and barely remember.

Also, the Rocketship Age was called Selentic. In case you were curious. If you hated the entry into the age, you would have hated the age itself- the entire age was sound-based puzzles. Me, personally, I had more trouble with Channelwood since I was terrible at drawing maps for redirecting the water around.

Very lucky I'd say. There are still grown-men trying to solve it now and ranting against it. (See me in my last post.) Though, yeah, sounds like I would have rage quit in that Age anyway. Channelwood was tedious too, but solvable by brute force or luck.

The puzzles in the Myst series just seem so ... arbitrary. They are puzzles for the sake of puzzles, and not in service to a storyline or narrative logic.

I disagree with you here, personally. The puzzles to me made sense; they were mostly security systems from a bygone era. When I think of arbitrary puzzles, I think of Professor Layton, where you can't enter a secret chamber until you figure out how many pies you need to sell in order to make a profit one day.

I get that they were security systems, but that breaks down in the fiction. (Too me anyway - you seem much better versed in it.) Why have an entire building devoted to arranging constellations to match dates to match symbols to match a code to a door? They are all way too convoluted to be security locks. Too difficult to use on a constant basis, and you wouldn't leave the answers lying around to break your lock if it was truly meant for security. I vaguely remember the plot as something like someone evil or crazy being sealed away - but again, if they were that bad, why leave clues on how to break them out? I don't know. It was weird.

I consider a puzzle with narrative logic to be like the one in Monkey Island where you must get past guard dogs to get into the governor's mansion. You can find meat, but that doesn't distract long enough to avoid attacking you, but it does seem to half-way work. You can then find yellow flowers that put people to sleep. So then you can combine the flowers with meat to knock the dogs out. It makes sense. Arbitrary would be the door to the governor's mansion having a sliding puzzle on it, or a keycode that can only be obtained by aligning a spyglass with 3 mountain peeks at dawn while looking west, etc.

Myst's biggest selling point to me back in the day was immersing me in what felt like a 3D world and left me to explore. For me (admittedly an early teen at the time) the puzzles, while occasionally interesting, mostly served as annoying roadblocks. But a LOT of other games have supplanted that role for me now. 3D worlds to explore and immerse myself in are great in number. Games like the Bioshock series fulfill a lot of the itch that Myst originally did.

I agree with you on the exploration part, but despite not playing Bioshock, I don't think any other game has filled this void for me. The case could be made for the Elder Scrolls or Fallout games - they give you a vast expanse to explore. Unfortunately, they're rife with enemies and many different ways to die (especially in Fallout), and don't just let you explore freely at your own pace without worrying about anything. I dislike action games - I'm definitely a member of a niche in this way - so the ability to explore a new world in a cerebral fashion without fear of death or failure was a unique experience - and it kind of continues to be for the most part. Also, the exploration was never hindered by numerous NPCs or cutscenes. It was all just there for you, moving at whatever pace you wanted, with no interruptions unless you just really drank too much coffee before you started.

I didn't think of the "no threat of death", but yeah, I guess that is a big part of it. I enjoyed Bioshock because it let me explore an environment that revealed a lot of the story in just context clues, and everything you saw was intriguing. While it had a lot of combat, you could often wipe everyone out and then explore at leisure, or could explore at leisure until you decided to attack someone, so there were lots of breathers where you could just pick a window and stare out at the ocean floor. Some of the best parts of Bioshock Infinite is the half hour or so beginning where you just get to wander a lighthouse, then a magnificent city, taking in the sights, sounds, and daily life of a "utopian" society, etc. all without enemies interfering.

I'd say the Assassin's Creed games are great for this as well. If you don't attack anyone you can just walk the streets and listen to conversations and watch daily life in very nice reconstructions of various historical periods.

I guess Myst's most lasting legacy for me is that it has ensured I always think about puzzle design. I mostly agree with Ron Gilbert of Monkey Island fame - puzzles should advance the story, and you should never find a solution before you've found the problem. Goals and objectives also need to be clear - which is where I think Myst really falls apart. The player has no goal beyond exploration - especially at the start. Eventually they may get the goal of seeing the story conclusion, but some player's may never find the story. (Beyond that weird intro that tells you nothing.)

I'll agree with you there - I can see how people would not get the story. As someone who played all six games and read all three novels, I understand the story thoroughly. Although, you get the full gist of the story (at least the parts applicable to you) by the end of Myst IV: Revelations. But I think the charm of Myst was NOT knowing what your goal was, because it kept a sense of wonder and mystery not frequently captured in modern gaming. There's no mystery in newer games to me.

I can see that. Sometimes not knowing what's going on at all can be very intriguing. But it is a delicate line to balance - too little information for too long and you'll cause some player's to quit.

[Gear]

I definitely see your point on all of this, though I do need to say something here:

I get that they were security systems, but that breaks down in the fiction. (Too me anyway - you seem much better versed in it.) Why have an entire building devoted to arranging constellations to match dates to match symbols to match a code to a door? They are all way too convoluted to be security locks. Too difficult to use on a constant basis, and you wouldn't leave the answers lying around to break your lock if it was truly meant for security. I vaguely remember the plot as something like someone evil or crazy being sealed away - but again, if they were that bad, why leave clues on how to break them out? I don't know. It was weird.

If memory serves, he left the clues behind because his wife Catherine, who had gone missing, could never remember how to access the "places of protection" and therefore needed the clues. It was the more convoluted "key under the mat" concept, except she had to play with an interactive map, open a secret passage, go up in a dark elevator, and read a magically changing piece of metal to get that key. But Atrus said he left the clues there so she could get into those four ages if absolutely necessary.

[trooper6]

It seems to me that both adventure games and exploration games are certainly still around. They aren't the top of the heap as they were back in the Myst days but they are still here--and often getting great buzz.

Both Gone Home and Dear Esther are exploration games that have sold well and gotten great critical buzz. Art game makers Tale of Tales is currently Kickstarting another Exploration game, Sunset, which has already made its target.

As for Adventure games...I'm quite a fan of them. I played the ones I could on the Xbox system: Still Life, Indigo Prophesy, Sherlock Holmes vs. Jack the Ripper, Dreamfall: The Longest Journey, Catherine, Psychonauts. I have another Sherlock Holmes game I'll be looking forward to playing. On the Mac or IPad I've enjoyed some games as well. I'm excited to play Still Life 2, and (when it comes out) the next Dreamfall game which I was a proud Kickstarter for. I've been playing Phoenix Write on my iPad....and of course the massively popular and award winning Walking Dead adventure game by Telltale Games.

So...there seem to be a good number of adventure games and with Quantic Dream, Telltale Games, and Double Fine...we seem to be in a bit of a renaissance for adventure games. With the critical acclaim of Dear Esther and Gone Home we also seem to be seeing increased interest in the exploration game sub genre of the adventure game as well.

So...adventure games are one of my favorite genres (though Myst didn't really do it for me) and while it isn't the *most* popular genre by far, I'm feeling exciting about adventure games in the future.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

If memory serves, he left the clues behind because his wife Catherine, who had gone missing, could never remember how to access the "places of protection" and therefore needed the clues. It was the more convoluted "key under the mat" concept, except she had to play with an interactive map, open a secret passage, go up in a dark elevator, and read a magically changing piece of metal to get that key. But Atrus said he left the clues there so she could get into those four ages if absolutely necessary.

Haha. Yeah, I vaguely remember that now. But isn't it funny that he expected his wife, who couldn't remember "where the key was", to remember how to rediscover the keys? A bit like sending your significant other on a scavenger hunt around town if they forget your alarm code.

[SundownKid]

As evidenced by Jonathan Blow's new game "Witness", it seems that he believes Myst-type games can still survive and be popular.

I for one enjoy the genre of "3D Adventure game", I really enjoyed the HL2 mod "Research and Development" that was sort of like that. I think a lot can be done with the idea and there doesn't have to be shooting or violence to have a fun 3D adventure title.

[Sharm]

I liked Mist for the same reasons you do Gear. That's why I'm so addicted to the Escape the Room subgenre of adventure games. You should check out the Submachine series, you'll love them.

[Lesleigh63]

Yep, Myst was one of the first games I played and I loved Riven. I liked moving around the worlds and looking at everything plus solving the puzzles to move on (providing they didn't become too frustrating). Storylines could use some work though.
If adventure games come back they need to be 'bigger and better' than what they were (evolve I guess).
I'd like it if they did. Action games don't suit me - they look good and I'd love to play them but I don't seem to have the hand/eye co-ordination to get past the fight scenes (I need a button that says 'over 45' playing mode).

[Apius]

Oh man, I love Riven, it's one of my favorite games!

In my opinion Myst is kinda... not too good. The puzzles are really simple, they flat out give you the answer in many cases. The different worlds you visit are really unique and cool, but honestly none of them feel like real fleshed-out worlds. But the story is kind of interesting and subtle, with the two equally evil and manipulative brothers who you slowly get to know over the course of the game.

But Riven on the other hand? Wow. I don't have enough positive things to say about it. The setting feels real and believable and it's beautiful to look at, even twenty years later. The story is very subtle, and most of it you have to pick up from observing the environment. My favorites are the tiny details throughout the world that show how the villain Gehn controlled, manipulated, belittled, and terrorized the Rivenese locals that he ruled. And Gehn remains maybe my favorite villain in any game, to this day. As for the puzzles, depending on how you break it down, the game is really only composed of two massive meta-puzzles that each have many complex steps. The puzzles require mind-bending logic at times, and you have to work with missing information some of the time. AND it has one of the best examples of a reoccurring motif in anything I've ever seen: the number 5. The number five is of great importance to Gehn and it plays a major part in several of the puzzles. Astute players can point out literally dozens of in-game examples where the number five shows up (ie. Riven is known as "The Fifth Age", Riven is spelled with five letters, there are five islands in Riven, the original game had five discs, etc)

So yeah, I strongly recommend them and I'm very excited about Obduction.