Why, IMO, it's hard finding a game to like as a female gamer

[DragoonHP]

@DragoonHP: Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree that the way to deal with racism or sexism is to ignore it, any more than ignoring a bully means they'll leave you alone.

And regarding to the quotes, there will always be someone who won't agree; some people still believe in racism and stuff, but those people do not represent today's world. Instead most of us had learnt to ignore them because not everyone changes with time and it's like hitting your head against a wall if you try to make them see errors in their way of thinking.

This was my reply and what i meant to say here is that there will be a minority no matter what you do, that will think differently than you and oppose you. if you are stuck on giving their views more notice, than this debate will continue on.

I could have very well quoted men who support feminism and would that be the opinion of all. No.

[papillon]

Well obviously no one's ever going to entirely agree, and it's quite difficult to tell what percentage of people ACTUALLY believe anything. But you can look at end results. You can look at skewed statistics, you can look at companies outright refusing to make things that cater to women, and you can say 'there's something not quite right here'.

Assuming "oh well, it'll never change" is a road to despair.

And considering how unpleasantly mainstream the concept of "all feminists are evil and hate men!" seems to be, we have an awful lot to speak up about.

[DragoonHP]

And considering how unpleasantly mainstream the concept of "all feminists are evil and hate men!" seems to be, we have an awful lot to speak up about.

<-- My expressions when I read this.

Not all feminists are evil and hate men. On the other hand, there percentage is quite low but they are the most vocal and unfortunately their views get portrayed out as the views of all of them.

[Mink]

Well obviously no one's ever going to entirely agree, and it's quite difficult to tell what percentage of people ACTUALLY believe anything. But you can look at end results. You can look at skewed statistics, you can look at companies outright refusing to make things that cater to women, and you can say 'there's something not quite right here'.

Assuming "oh well, it'll never change" is a road to despair.

And considering how unpleasantly mainstream the concept of "all feminists are evil and hate men!" seems to be, we have an awful lot to speak up about.

^This.

[DragoonHP]

@Mink: What about it?

[Mink]

Uh, saying 'this' is to show agreement in the statement/post, especially since Papillon beat me to it.

[Taosym]

Well obviously no one's ever going to entirely agree, and it's quite difficult to tell what percentage of people ACTUALLY believe anything. But you can look at end results. You can look at skewed statistics, you can look at companies outright refusing to make things that cater to women, and you can say 'there's something not quite right here'.

Assuming "oh well, it'll never change" is a road to despair.

And considering how unpleasantly mainstream the concept of "all feminists are evil and hate men!" seems to be, we have an awful lot to speak up about.

It's not "outright refusal". You're implying that companies would rather ruin games for women, then to get more money. If there is anything I know about business and economics, Corporate greed trumps sexism, bigotry and anything else. The reason why the male demographic is catered to, and the female demographic is underrepresented. Is because the women who will buy the game is a very, very small amount compared to the men who will.

It's the reason why these companies try to poll their fans to see, who come to them and say "We want more games for women!". All they can do is take this to people with the wallets. They don't care about games, they only care about the bottom line. They only care about how many people will buy this game.

The way to fix this. Is to increase the female demographic for games. If more women are buying games, games will come out to cater to them.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Well obviously no one's ever going to entirely agree, and it's quite difficult to tell what percentage of people ACTUALLY believe anything. But you can look at end results. You can look at skewed statistics, you can look at companies outright refusing to make things that cater to women, and you can say 'there's something not quite right here'.

Assuming "oh well, it'll never change" is a road to despair.

And considering how unpleasantly mainstream the concept of "all feminists are evil and hate men!" seems to be, we have an awful lot to speak up about.

It's not "outright refusal". You're implying that companies would rather ruin games for women, then to get more money. If there is anything I know about business and economics, Corporate greed trumps sexism, bigotry and anything else. The reason why the male demographic is catered to, and the female demographic is underrepresented. Is because the women who will buy the game is a very, very small amount compared to the men who will.

It's the reason why these companies try to poll their fans to see, who come to them and say "We want more games for women!". All they can do is take this to people with the wallets. They don't care about games, they only care about the bottom line. They only care about how many people will buy this game.

The way to fix this. Is to increase the female demographic for games. If more women are buying games, games will come out to cater to them.

That isn't exactly how it has been working. It's only recently that some gaming companies have figured out that girls want to play games and that they are a market. Prior to that they didn't make games that included positive girl material because they didn't believe girls would buy it. This was false. Bioware got good numbers from DA1 to support the making of more inclusive games. Girls make up the majority of casual gamers. It wasn't because the market didn't exist, it was because they weren't looking for it and some still think that it wouldn't be as large as the male gamer population. I have seen no proof to support that theory. However, even when they have started to recognise that they want to tap in to the female market, they don't always get it right because they are unsure what it is girls like, so you end up with a weird guy version of what they think girls will like (Again, I posted an article earlier reflecting this when Bioware was designing male love interests) . Therefore they need to do more research and we need to tell them what we want so they can successfully sell to us. They are starting to look for that information, slowly, and they will find the female market is just as strong as the male one.

It's also impossible to buy things that don't exist. Buying games we are not happy with will not make more female perspective games, it will just encourage them to ignore us because hey, we are buying the games. If we want them to know, we have to tell them. They aren't going to magically know otherwise. I'm sure they want our money as much as anyone else's, so they are going to have to start selling to us in the same way they sell to guys, by providing content that we are interested in.

[Dollywitch]

One of the problems with being any kind of marginalised person is that you regularly get told how you should feel about your position in society, and if you disagree, it's "Political Correctness Gone Mad". It's not that people can't disagree, but people have to recognise that it goes beyond just opinions, how real people are affected is less subjective. This is probably the biggest problem with modern social/political discussion - the "human" element is missing. Opinions have become more important than welfare, and I think that's wrong.

Listening and accepting other people's issues is important even if the idea makes you feel uncomfortable. A woman in a male dominated area is a marginalised person, and telling them how they should feel about that is wrong. Any argument against women's issues, gay issues etc. can become obnoxious *really fast*.

[PyTom]

While you may be actually talking to Auro, here's what you can do for me: don't make what you're writing actively offensive to half the human species (i.e. women), regardless of whether or not it's for them. Women can be sexy without being objectified.

The problem here is that people can easily disagree as to what is offensive - and it's stereotyping to assume that those ideas correspond to gender (or race, or orientation, or religion, or anything else). The whole "avoid objectification" idea seems great - but objectification is a large and poorly defined term.

Is the "rescue the damsel in distress" plot objectification? I've seen it called that - but it's also a really appealing plot, as it lets the player put himself in the role of someone doing something genuinely heroic. You can't have that plot with entirely strong characters.

Should something like this be off limits?

If we want them to know, we have to tell them. They aren't going to magically know otherwise.

The problem is, people tell us lots of things. Some tell us that games appealing to women are a path to success - others will tell us there's a way to go broke. (Others will say other things, like that women seem to prefer casual and social games.) So simply telling people is unlikely to accomplish anything.

If there's a large untapped demand that others are missing, the right way to respond is to tap it. Using your resource, target that market and make a game that appeals to it. Society has a mechanism by which people can pool their resources to share the risk and the reward - the Corporation. If you're game is profitable it will encourage others to make more like it. (And if they don't - well, you'll have more resourced to make more games yourself, and the lack of competition will help you gain market share.)

Spending a lot of words "telling" people seems a poor use of time. Spending those resources to organize likeminded people seems like it would be far more effective.

Any argument against women's issues, gay issues etc. can become obnoxious *really fast*.

A big problem is that people claiming to advocate for "women's issues", "gay issues", and so on often consist of relatively small numbers of politicized people claiming to represent larger groups - often to promote one particular solution. It's perfectly legitimate to promote alternative solutions, or to point out that the problems the advocates claim to see do not exist, or are not real problems.

Trying to shut down discussion by people who disagree with you is a lousy way of trying to convince people of your point.

[Auro-Cyanide]

If we want them to know, we have to tell them. They aren't going to magically know otherwise.

The problem is, people tell us lots of things. Some tell us that games appealing to women are a path to success - others will tell us there's a way to go broke. (Others will say other things, like that women seem to prefer casual and social games.) So simply telling people is unlikely to accomplish anything.

If there's a large untapped demand that others are missing, the right way to respond is to tap it. Using your resource, target that market and make a game that appeals to it. Society has a mechanism by which people can pool their resources to share the risk and the reward - the Corporation. If you're game is profitable it will encourage others to make more like it. (And if they don't - well, you'll have more resourced to make more games yourself, and the lack of competition will help you gain market share.)

Spending a lot of words "telling" people seems a poor use of time. Spending those resources to organize likeminded people seems like it would be far more effective.

Yes, that is one solutions, but it doesn't help anyone understand why it is an issue in the first place and why it is meeting resistance. If I was going to invest money in something like this, I would sure as hell want to understand what the problem is. It is also a solution to get established game makers to sell to us because they have built up resources and reputations as well as a desire for money. A combination of both will probably be most beneficial to creating positive change and impressions. Lack of games that are positive for girls isn't the overarching problem, it is why there is a lack of games for girls. I would like it if girls, as consumers, could be vocal about there wants without being seen as a threat and for feminine elements to not be seen as something totally undesirable by males. That is what I would like to see because I think it makes for a much more rounder and fulfilling gamer culture that is open to ideas, experimentation and improvement. This is a big thing that won't easily change and people's perceptions will effect how it goes. That is why we talk about it, share our impressions and information. Talking about things is a very civilised way to share information, and should be used along with doing things. As much as it would be nice to just be able to 'fix' the problem through action, I think understanding will go a long way in making this a smoother road, for it to be seen as an interesting and progressive step forward, not a threat or something that would make games terrible. Talking about things can sometimes do the world of good, and people are not mind readers. Communication is a good thing.

As for the damsel in distress thing, of course it shouldn't stop existing as it can be very interesting. But what about if there is more variation? Why the damsel is helpless for instance? I would prefer if the answer wasn't always 'she is a woman'. What about if she was being emotionally blackmailed? Maybe she is trying to protect someone else by offering herself up in exchange? There are lots of types of strengths. Maybe the girl could rescue a guy on occasions. Maybe there is a twist on how it ends. I would find these interesting to read.

On a side note, I would LOVE to see more interesting female characters. People keeping telling me that strong female characters are 'unrealistic' which is nonsense. You just have to look at history to find some pretty dangerous and strong women. The idea of empowered females isn't as fantastical as people make it out to be. Some of these women would make great heros or villains. More variety and more interesting characteristics would be a great thing.

Cleopatra, ruler of Egypt.
Boudica, the Celtic warrior Queen (I have a feeling Pixar's new film might be related to this one...Her story is definitely a great one)
Elizabeth Bathory, who is said to be one of the influences for Bram Stoker's Dracula.
Shi Xianggu, a pirate Queen who held fleets of ships under her power (I would love to play something based on this woman).
Cixi, the cruel Empress of China.
Mata Hari, a spy.
Phoolan Devi, the bandit Queen.
Malinali, Belle Starr, Amy Bock, Chicago May, Tilly Devine.

[DragoonHP]

One of the problems with being any kind of marginalised person is that you regularly get told how you should feel about your position in society, and if you disagree, it's "Political Correctness Gone Mad". It's not that people can't disagree, but people have to recognise that it goes beyond just opinions, how real people are affected is less subjective. This is probably the biggest problem with modern social/political discussion - the "human" element is missing. Opinions have become more important than welfare, and I think that's wrong.

It may be true, but there is another aspect to it. These so-called marginalised class has formed a mentality that if anyone don't agree with them, even if only a single bit, they feel that they are getting told their position in the society. Call it insecurity if you want to.

Listening and accepting other people's issues is important even if the idea makes you feel uncomfortable. A woman in a male dominated area is a marginalised person, and telling them how they should feel about that is wrong. Any argument against women's issues, gay issues etc. can become obnoxious *really fast*.

This might have been true if we were say, 10 or 15 years in past. But now it isn't. And please don't start posting links, citing other resources, because as I have said earlier, there will always be exception; nothing in this world is 100%.

Take the discussion going on here as example, because as I have read many times here on similar discussions, this is a male-dominated area. Here women are trying to tell us (supposedly a male-dominant area) what they want from games.
But you know what their gripe is, we are not agreeing to it as soon as they put down their demand and so they are feeling that they are being told.
Just because it's from a woman does not give that idea some kind of clearance slip; they feel that unless everything they say gets instant approval, it becomes "obnoxious".

And it's not a problem exclusive to feminist or woman, it's something that is found in every... every single so-called marginalised people.

And the only solution I see to it is, bow our head and accept everything what they say without second thoughts.
Not happening.

EDIT: Added some missed words...

[Auro-Cyanide]

Listening and accepting other people's issues is important even if the idea makes you feel uncomfortable. A woman in a male dominated area is a marginalised person, and telling them how they should feel about that is wrong. Any argument against women's issues, gay issues etc. can become obnoxious *really fast*.

This might have been true if we were say, 10 or 15 years in past. But now it isn't. And please don't start posting links, citing other resources, because as I have said earlier, there will always be exception; nothing in this world is 100%.

Take the discussion going on here as example, because as I have read many times here on similar discussions, this a is a male-dominated area. Here women are trying to tell us (supposedly a male-dominant area) what they want from games.
But you know what their gripe is, we are not agreeing to it as soon as they put down their demand and so they are feeling that they are being told.
Just because it's from a woman does not give that idea some kind of clearance slip; they feel that unless everything they say gets instant approval, the instant is becoming "obnoxious".

And it's not a problem exclusive to feminist or woman, it's something that is found in every... every single so-called marginalised.

And the only solution I see to it is, bow our head and accept everything that say without second thoughts.
Not happening.

Ah, but why are you against what girls are asking for in games?

------

I also wanted to highlight that current female stereotypes in games are a result of culture, not a natural state. Plus, this is really exciting to read

Boudica had undergone a metamorphosis since the death of her peace-loving husband, discovering the passion and the skills she needed to transform herself into a tribal leader and orator. She succeed in amassing a huge army, with the whole of East Anglia taking up arms. While to the Romans the thought of a woman leading an army, or even fighting alongside men, was laughable, the Britons held no such prejudices. In Celtic culture, goddesses were revered and women were seen as equal to men. Of a battle in 102 BC between the Romans and the Celts, Plutarch had remarked: 'The fight had been no less fierce with the women than with the men themselves ... the women charged with swords and axes and fell upon their opponents uttering a hideous outcry'. Boudica's Celtic sisters threw themselves in the fray with enthusiasm. To the Romans, used to prim matrons who took care of the children and the household gods, waiting patently for their husbands to come home from war, these women were the stuff of nightmare.

Maybe we need to think twice about what a woman can and can not do, hmmmm.

[DragoonHP]

@Auro-Cynaide: I am not; i just don't like the way it is being said,
Never in the discussion I had said that I am against female targeted towards female, but what I am against is this game of accusations that is going on here.
No matter how much co-operation one is showing, it is not enough until we completely agree.
Not to mention the fact that every second poster is trying to derail the thread by bringing up women issues in the thread.

[Fawn]

People keeping telling me that strong female characters are 'unrealistic' which is nonsense.

I think a lot of the time when people say "strong female characters are unrealistic", they mean they can't see how a teeny tiny model chick can kick a bunch of bad guys' asses on her own (without magical powers, of course). There's been quite a few movies lately where a pencil thin woman is somehow able to overpower people that are much stronger than her physically.

That's just physics... I stand at 5'3 inches (160cm), and even if I bodybuilt and got advanced combat training it would be very easy for a big man to overpower me and break my neck.

This wouldn't be the case for a non-pencil-thin model woman with large muscles that could easily punch in a guy's face with one fist... But, those aren't "attractive" to the main stream unfortunately,main characters always need to be attractive. Same goes for Tom Cruise really... I think if he was really a spy he'd most likely be easy to kill due to his stature...


I probably mentioned this before, but... Why is there still a discussion? Obviously people are just talking and talking... It's getting no where... We get it. You want equality. It's understandable. But, if you want change, actions are louder than words. Many of you are already taking action through making games.

People like myself will most likely not agree with a lot of your opinions no matter how many times you say them. Instead of wasting time on us, spend time working on the problem with action. It's obvious GxB and other girl-oriented games have been dominating the forum for awhile now... Is this not progress towards your goal?