Art skill + pricing as well as critique...? ADVICE?

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Um...can I just add a list to preferential style imitations to what I can and can't draw, or would that be unprofessional?

Unprofessional. The mistake I see you make over and over again is framing things in a negative connotation. You say, "I won't draw this, this, or this" when you could just as easily turn it around and be positive by saying, "I specialize in this, this, and this type of art".

Professionals never say or list what they CANNOT or WILL NOT do, only what they CAN do. Think about the mindset your list puts people in: "Well, geez. That's a lot of stuff this artist won't draw. Are they not good enough?" "That thing on the list is close to what I wanted done . . . does it count or not? Should I ask about it or not? I don't want to be personally turned down . . . ."

Every artist has things they won't do, but they leave it well enough alone until someone ASKS them to draw one of those things. Then they can make a decision on an individual personal level on whether or not to take the commission. Because you say you won't do certain things, but there are always exceptions, and you want to leave yourself open to accept those jobs. You are turning away a whole lot of jobs by listing what you won't do, when maybe, for the right money or right project, you would.

And you need to start posting actually game sprites and backgrounds and event CGs. Something where people can go - "I can see that being in my game. My game could look like that!" And instead of just bumping your own threads with the equivalent of "come on guys, I still need money here, give me something" you should be active in the community. Post in topics that aren't yours and join discussions, get your name and personality out there. Keep a link to your commissions in your signature and let interested parties do the rest. So far you're giving a negative impression because the only times you post it's either - "I need money, hire me" or "Why aren't more people hiring me? I need money." Frankly, right now it feels like you only show up for a hand-out or to complain.

People are more likely to hire or commission someone they feel is a friend or is at least friendly and social. They will also trust you more. If you are someone that regularly posts and discusses things with the group, they won't have nagging doubts that you may disappear on them. Your reputation is only as good as your current community actions. No one is going to trust you based on your past actions in other communities or real life, because they can't verify those things.

[kura-ou]

Edit: Your prices are about the same, if not slightly higher, than the others around here. I'd lower headshots to $7-$10, waist-ups to $12, full body to $22. Just went to AX's Artist Alley, the prints I got were cheap ($5 for three small prints, $10+ or something for a poster. Take note that there was a discount for buying 2 or 3 posters). IDK, I'm frugal so I only buy cheap stuff or things I pretty much die for

I disagree. Those prices you list are too cheap. The difference between what he is doing and the posters and prints you talk about buying is that he can only get paid ONCE for his art. That artist that made the print or poster? They keep getting paid for the artwork over and over again each time someone buys a poster, so they can afford to make less per sell because they will make the value back in volume.

I think that part of the reason why you may not be getting commissions is that this is generally a project oriented forum, instead of an artwork oriented forum. What I mean by that is that most people on here are either working on a project, just got done working on a project, or are looking at other people's projects.

Essentially, what that means for you is that, more often than not, you'll have to wait on other people's timing.

I agree with this. You have to become well-known in the community so that when people think of potential artists for their next project they think of you. Also, most creators on the forum can't afford reasonable art prices or are cheap, and the ones that do pay good rates only need an artist once every few months - and they often have them booked up to a year in advance. So it is a waiting game for you.

As to the volume of your commissions, the main thing about building a freelance business based on them is repeat customers. You gradually build a client list that keeps coming back to you for work. My instructors who have lived off freelance told me it took 5-6 years to build a freelance art business up to a level it could support living off it. That's once you are ALREADY at a professional level and doing everything right.

The only real solution to your troubles is patience.

Well...my style isn't Naruto, Bleach or mainstream anime-inspired ^ ^; One of my friends already does the K-ON style, as well as a mix of her original style; she's so talented that I don't want to try to compete with her XD

I honestly don't like copying mainstream styles. I like mixing up my own style with any inspiration I get ^ ^;;; My oldest style was so crappy and mainstream that I didn't like it...but thank you for the advice, Sapphi, I will keep this in mind

Well... the thing is, what you like to do won't always pay the bills. Leiji Matsumoto - yes, THAT Leiji Matsumoto - was a shojo mangaka in his early career despite his decidedly non-shojo preferences. Now, of course, people pay him money to do whatever the heck he likes, but he had to prove himself first.

Another thing to think about is that your commission style doesn't necessarily have to be your personal style. You can do what sells to make money, then you can do what you like in your spare time. It's unfortunate, but if it's your only way to make income, you can't afford to be picky, can you?

Emphasis mine. Mainstream art styles is how you pay the bills. Personal styles are how you stroke your ego. Mainstream art is what goes on bookcovers, soup cans, posters, and flyers.

You need to decide - are you an artist, or are you a craftsman? An artist creates, a craftsman produces. Craftsmen make the art that adorns much of the world around us. A good craftsman can emulate any style they are given - they make art to specification. On demand. They are employed in teams to create animated movies and shows that are consistent and in one style. They make all those Disney themed books and party favors that look like the original art.

I personally don't have much of a personal style. (Ha!) I'm definitely in the craftsman category. I can copy and emulate any art style I'm given. I'm what is sometimes referred to as a "chameleon artist". It pays the bills. Glen Keane no longer works for Disney, but they need someone to draw Ariel and Rapunzel like he did. Neil Adams too expensive to do your comic cover? You get someone to draw it that can emulate him. A comic artist drew half an issue and they need it finished? They call you and you deliver by copying the hell out of the artist's style.

Craftsman artists make money and live off it. You work long enough putting in your dues doing multiple styles (which will improve ALL your art by the way - how else do you stretch and exercise your artistic muscles? Drawing in only one personal style seems artistically lazy to me), you'll eventually get enough money or recognition to do your own thing. But I find it extremely . . . short sighted . . . to be picky about sticking to a personal style if you are trying to make a living off your art.

I agree with LWR on this one. Although, this is a rather irrelevant question... Where do you find the best cardstock for prints? I don't plan on making any, but it's very difficult to find good card stock. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to paper weight and such (I just want to be able to give my friends print-outs of my artwork, that's all...although the printer may also affect the quality).

Using your definition, I wouldn't have classified an animator as a craftsman until I saw the last paragraph you wrote. I admire Glenn Keane, and would buy his artwork if it was ever printed for a collection. However, I would never buy an imitator's if it was falsely advertised as Glenn Keane's. I don't know how honest companies are when it comes to this matter.

I'll admit that I've never been a craftsman. You're extremely lucky to be able to emulate many styles. I don't know if it came with lots of practice or talented, but you are very fortunate.

It's not that I want to be lazy, but I just want to stand out... If a style isn't interesting to me, I really don't feel like copying it...but if I were paid to do it...maybe I would... HOWEVER, if it has bad anatomy, how do you get past that? Do you just go with your gut and anatomical knowledge and try to emulate the style as closely as possible without ruining it?

My paradigm is starting to shift, but this particular problem is a bit unnerving...

[kura-ou]

Um...can I just add a list to preferential style imitations to what I can and can't draw, or would that be unprofessional?

Unprofessional. The mistake I see you make over and over again is framing things in a negative connotation. You say, "I won't draw this, this, or this" when you could just as easily turn it around and be positive by saying, "I specialize in this, this, and this type of art".

Professionals never say or list what they CANNOT or WILL NOT do, only what they CAN do. Think about the mindset your list puts people in: "Well, geez. That's a lot of stuff this artist won't draw. Are they not good enough?" "That thing on the list is close to what I wanted done . . . does it count or not? Should I ask about it or not? I don't want to be personally turned down . . . ."

I'm still just an amateur freelancer trying to be slightly more professional. Thank you for pointing that out. It's just that I've come across many professional-level (but amateur) freelancers' pages and they still list that, so I assumed that it was normal (particularly when it's difficult to find any professional dA artist who actually does commissions in their free time; maybe it's just due to my artistic preferences). I also 'frame' things negatively because if I am not confident in doing something, I don't want to waste the commissioner's time with my mistakes. I honestly wouldn't know what do if I encountered a situation like this.

Every artist has things they won't do, but they leave it well enough alone until someone ASKS them to draw one of those things. Then they can make a decision on an individual personal level on whether or not to take the commission. Because you say you won't do certain things, but there are always exceptions, and you want to leave yourself open to accept those jobs. You are turning away a whole lot of jobs by listing what you won't do, when maybe, for the right money or right project, you would.

Well, this was particularly helpful. Thanks again. I'll be sure to reformat everything after I add more samples.

Would I phrase it along the lines of "I can attempt anything that is not listed, but my samples and gallery should give you a feel of what I am capable of. You are free to challenge me otherwise"?

And you need to start posting actually game sprites and backgrounds and event CGs. Something where people can go - "I can see that being in my game. My game could look like that!" And instead of just bumping your own threads with the equivalent of "come on guys, I still need money here, give me something" you should be active in the community. Post in topics that aren't yours and join discussions, get your name and personality out there. Keep a link to your commissions in your signature and let interested parties do the rest. So far you're giving a negative impression because the only times you post it's either - "I need money, hire me" or "Why aren't more people hiring me? I need money." Frankly, right now it feels like you only show up for a hand-out or to complain.

I'm still working on separate sprites. I won't post them until I'm done. Right now, I'm just trying to get advice on how to structure and what to improve on beforehand. I understand that your tone can be cold, but I'm very thankful for all your advice.

It's not that I want to post here just to complain or whatever. This forum is EXTREMELY HELPFUL compared to deviantART. If I ask for advice anywhere on that website, I get trolled. Before, I'd get even more depressed and wanted to give up art forever, seriously.

And, really, the job forums are riddled with kids and teens posting and begging for money, same for livejournal. I hate that I've treated it as a norm and incorporated it into my commission threads and journals (but if my financial problems are true, can I help not posting it? It's a bit of a dilemma for me... I mean, some people want money for manga or some game, some people want it for premium memberships, and the few really needy ones like me and those even more unfortunate need money for bills and rent). I don't want to judge here... I'm just stuck.

One horrible example of this was some popular deviant who asked for traditional commissions to help pay for rent and she ended up using the money for smokes and drugs after commissioners demanded refunds after a year or so... Now this is highly unprofessional. She apologized, but the damage was done.

I would never want to scam commissioners like that, nor do I want to fake being friendly or needy. I truly am in need, but, instead of complaining, I'll just have to work on tons of art. It takes over 20 minutes to write a response to each post ^ ^;

People are more likely to hire or commission someone they feel is a friend or is at least friendly and social. They will also trust you more. If you are someone that regularly posts and discusses things with the group, they won't have nagging doubts that you may disappear on them. Your reputation is only as good as your current community actions. No one is going to trust you based on your past actions in other communities or real life, because they can't verify those things.

When I was a teenager, I was far more involved in forums. I wish I joined this forum earlier, honestly. I always put it off for Gaia...and that got me nowhere.

You mention discussions...I'm very bad at them due to fear of being trolled, but I will try to participate (see what dA did to me?). I've done one commission for a member here, but it was through dA note, so I don't know if his username is the same...

I think I'm better off just posting a small request thread here...? Would that work? Even with my workload, I don't mind drawing more free sketches... Everyone who commented has really lifted me up from this stupid depression slump (I wish it didn't exist at all...).

I used to do these on dA, but I'd rather not deal with some of the more the immature deviants who post. LS Forums is more civilized, and I like that.

Thanks again for your input. I think you're a great motivator.

[kura-ou]

Why not broaden your style instead of just changing your style? Professionals should have flexibility to match coworker's art style. If I hire someone, that person must be versatile, flexible and no strong characteristic artist.

(which will improve ALL your art by the way - how else do you stretch and exercise your artistic muscles? Drawing in only one personal style seems artistically lazy to me)

I totality agree.

[edit] One more thing. You looks too much love on what you've done for me. I prefer to work with an artist who is less interested in what he's done and keep shutting his mouth in the future.

Even animators have little bits of their style thrown in key frames and sequences. I wouldn't mind broadening my style, but the one thing I fear is not being able to emulate a style properly. Take for example, Tanemura Arina. I love her style, but I'd never emulate it because my version would probably turn to crap... (LOL, I can probably copy Takahashi Rumiko's, though ^ ^; )

It takes so much practice...I'd better start working...

I have no idea what your last 'paragraph' means, by the way... It sounds kind of harsh, to be honest. I've worked with demanding commissioners and some have mentioned this type of artist. I'm not one of them. I'm not good enough to be that arrogant, nor would I ever want to be that prideful. Of course, what I've just said may not have anything to do with what you said... It's just REALLY CONFUSING to me.

[Sapphi]

And, really, the job forums are riddled with kids and teens posting and begging for money, same for livejournal. I hate that I've treated it as a norm and incorporated it into my commission threads and journals (but if my financial problems are true, can I help not posting it? It's a bit of a dilemma for me... I mean, some people want money for manga or some game, some people want it for premium memberships, and the few really needy ones like me and those even more unfortunate need money for bills and rent). I don't want to judge here... I'm just stuck.

I don't mind when people talk a little about their personal lives and circumstances. It helps me form an idea of what they are like, and where they are coming from when they make posts. But this is why you have to actually mingle with people on the board, so they can form a better picture of you than just "That person who comes to beg". I mean, if you are very active in the community and friendly to others, they will feel much more pity for you when you are going through a rough time than when you are a comparatively faceless poster. This is just simple human nature.

Scenario: You're out walking your dog. A homeless guy you have never seen before walks up to you and asks, "Can you spare twenty dollars?" What do you do? You feel bad, and you want to help, but at the same time you have no idea who this person is or what he is going to do with your money. If you do give him the money, you'll probably feel a little ill at ease. Was that really the best decision? Did he really need it more than you did?

But what if: You're out walking your dog - a German Shepherd-Collie mix. Homeless guy comments as you walk past. "Wow, is that a Shepherd-Collie mix? I used to have a dog who looked just like that!" Genuine conversation follows in which the two of you share your love for the breed and he tells you a sob story about how his dog saved him from a burning building. You feel for him, so you hand him a twenty and give him your best wishes. You walk away, not only happy that you helped, but happy that you made a human connection with a total stranger.

The human connection is the most important thing.

You mention discussions...I'm very bad at them due to fear of being trolled, but I will try to participate (see what dA did to me?). I've done one commission for a member here, but it was through dA note, so I don't know if his username is the same...

Well... I think everyone here wants a productive atmosphere, so trolls are not tolerated. People here like to debate and sometimes it gets a little heated, but nobody is allowed to hurl personal insults at others. I don't think you have much to worry about.

I used to do these on dA, but I'd rather not deal with some of the more the immature deviants who post. LS Forums is more civilized, and I like that.

I like it too. *sips tea*

Thanks again for your input. I think you're a great motivator.

Seconding this sentiment LWR =w=

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Where do you find the best cardstock for prints? I don't plan on making any, but it's very difficult to find good card stock. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to paper weight and such (I just want to be able to give my friends print-outs of my artwork, that's all...although the printer may also affect the quality).

You'll want to use a professional print shop for making prints usually. Both the type and quality of paper and the machine can have a huge impact on final print quality and fidelity to the original.

Using your definition, I wouldn't have classified an animator as a craftsman until I saw the last paragraph you wrote. I admire Glenn Keane, and would buy his artwork if it was ever printed for a collection. However, I would never buy an imitator's if it was falsely advertised as Glenn Keane's. I don't know how honest companies are when it comes to this matter.

What do you mean, dishonest? Glen Keane designed Ariel and Rapunzel for Disney. Disney owns Ariel and Rapunzel. If Ariel and Rapunzel don't look like they do in the movies, people get upset or weirded-out or don't even recognize the characters. So Disney hires artists to draw their characters the same way every time. Disney illustrators actually get a big binder or book with notes and tips and examples and are told to study it and COPY THAT STYLE. You don't think highly paid animators and designers like Glenn Keane are sitting around or getting paid to draw new Ariel pictures for party hats do you?

That is how the professional commercial art world works. One artist is the designer, they create the look, feel, and style. Then other artists copy that style to produce the finished product. Game artists get handed concept work and told to make it. Etc. Personal style isn't highly prized unless you are truly unique and fresh. Then you might get to be the designer. And have other artists copy your work. But the numbers of artists that applies to is very small.

I'll admit that I've never been a craftsman. You're extremely lucky to be able to emulate many styles. I don't know if it came with lots of practice or talented, but you are very fortunate.

It is entirely training. Luck or talent has nothing to do with it. It involves all the skills that make an artist good. Perception, being able to see and dissect a scene. If you can't break apart another artist's work and see what does and doesn't work, you can't ever truly understand your own work or make good conscious decisions about it.

Great artists have always learned by copying other artists. As apprentices or fans, copying is how an artist learns. If one artist does light and shadow better than you, you copy their method. Someone else does more expressive faces? You copy them. Someone does better foreshortening or composition. Copy, copy. THAT is how you eventually arrive at an individual style, when your unique blend of old styles produces something surprising.

It's not that I want to be lazy, but I just want to stand out... If a style isn't interesting to me, I really don't feel like copying it...but if I were paid to do it...maybe I would... HOWEVER, if it has bad anatomy, how do you get past that? Do you just go with your gut and anatomical knowledge and try to emulate the style as closely as possible without ruining it?

You copy GOOD art. Knowing the difference is part of what makes you a professional or not. And you don't have to emulate or copy whole styles. Like I said before - maybe an artist has horrible anatomy, but their use of colors is outstanding. Copy their colors, leave the anatomy alone. Pick and choose.

But you HAVE to experiment with different styles. Picking one, or just doing slight variations on it, weakens you as an artist. You mention needing money - well, craftsman artists are the ones who make a living doing art. Getting to Glenn Keane's level is hard, slow, and taxing, and there are not very many designer seats to fill. But being able to fill any slot or need as an artist on demand makes you valuable and means there are few jobs you can't do. Even Glenn Keane started off copying other styles to do his job as an animator.

This really is not a problem. You can draw right? Lines are lines. Rearrange them as needed.

And, really, the job forums are riddled with kids and teens posting and begging for money, same for livejournal. I hate that I've treated it as a norm and incorporated it into my commission threads and journals (but if my financial problems are true, can I help not posting it? It's a bit of a dilemma for me... I mean, some people want money for manga or some game, some people want it for premium memberships, and the few really needy ones like me and those even more unfortunate need money for bills and rent). I don't want to judge here... I'm just stuck.

Sigh. Everyone needs money. Guilt-tripping clients or people is unprofessional. Just the fact you are asking for money means people know you are using it for bills, rent, and food, because that is what a job is all about. You don't need to bring it up. You are either asking for donations, or you are doing a service in exchange for money. Don't mix the two.

Some people, aka, like me, are NOT going to hire people who mention stuff like that. It creeps us out. It mixes the personal with the professional, and all we can think is "Oh, man. If I hire this person, they're probably going to want to talk about their problems. I do not need that on my mind." We always wonder what other guilt-trip tactics you'll try and pull later on. Will you come back begging us for commissions later because we hired you once? It is manipulative behavior, intentioned or not.

I don't see anything wrong with panhandling - and that's what that is, digital panhandling - but be up front and honest with it. You want donations, create a donations button. A lot of artists have a donation button on their site along with something clever or pithy by it, but they DON'T post sob stories to drum up money with clients.

Would I phrase it along the lines of "I can attempt anything that is not listed, but my samples and gallery should give you a feel of what I am capable of. You are free to challenge me otherwise"?

"Leave well enough alone" means don't mention it at all. Again, people will either ask for something based on what they see, or they will ask for something different. Then you handle it on a case by case basis.

I understand that your tone can be cold, but I'm very thankful for all your advice.

I don't mean to be cold, just no nonsense. I feel like sometimes trying to be too nice or pad criticism or advice can make it less effective, so to be helpful I try and be direct. Also, because the most helpful teachers and instructors in my life have always been those that didn't coddle or handhold me, but told me where my failings were in a blunt way, then delivered advice on how to fix those areas. I guess being in the military contributed to my blunt instructional method as well.

And my posts would be book length if I did the whole - compliment sandwich criticism method . . . .

EDIT: Oh, and it may help to know, I only bother giving advice at all if I think a person has potential. So . . . compliment.

[Elze]

Here to speak as both a fellow anime artist and an anime-art-buyer (I buy commissions quite often). C:

To be honest, I also think your art style looks mainstream. ...5-10 years ago, that is. Mainstream styles change to suit updated preferences, so having an outdated mainstream style means your art no longer appeals to the majority of the anime-art-buying public. Also, don't be quick to diss mainstream styles. Take a look at what's current: Kuroko no Basuke, Tsuritama and Zero/Fate. If you were to compare the 3, each of them have distinctive traits and don't look like the other. A bad misconception would be to lump ALL mainstream styles as ONE style, failing to observe the differences between different anime styles when you're an anime artist yourself. It annoys me a little when an anime artist thinks that all 'mainstream' anime art looks the same.

Fortunately for myself and tons of anime artists out there, we douse ourselves in so much anime art (browsing pixiv, watching latest anime, playing otome games) that we just gradually change our styles to suit our updating preferences without realising it. It's not like we purposefully try to 'mimic' a 'typical anime style' that's popular. Just take a look at long-time shoujo mangakas. If you were to compare her work from 10 years ago with her latest work, you'll be amazed by the differences. Considering how many styles exist that can be considered 'mainstream', I'm sure you'll be able to find one you like. It's just a matter of your level of skills, to see if you're capable of producing work that looks refined and polished enough to grace a cover.

Anime art has also progressed a lot in recent years, with the emergence of new programs catered for anime art (SAI, Clip Paint Lab) and communities (Pixiv). Everyone is constantly updating and upgrading their skills. Your art looks fine, but it's something that's achievable with the technology from 7 years ago. This means that while everyone else has been experimenting with new techniques and softwares, you haven't progressed much from the skill set you started off with. If you want to make money from what you're doing, you have to make sure to keep up with the competition. 6 years ago, when the fandom was much smaller, there weren't that many people drawing anime and we didn't have as many references to look at. Now there's pixiv, zerochan, tons of subbed anime and games, so the excuse that we don't draw as well as the Japanese "because we're less exposed to anime art" no longer holds true. Always, always update yourself with what's new. Don't just stay in your comfort zone, not daring to change your style or try new techniques. Whenever I browse pretty anime art I observe the ones I like best, and sometimes I try to deploy similar techniques to see how it'll work out on my style. That's how we keep progressing.

[papillon]

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but... One of the common things I often see in deviantartist's commission info is "No yaoi/yuri".

I'm never sure if they solely mean "I don't do hentai" or if they mean "I hate gay". Without more information, I tend to assume the latter... which puts me off hiring them for anything.

[Arcanum]

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but... One of the common things I often see in deviantartist's commission info is "No yaoi/yuri".

I'm never sure if they solely mean "I don't do hentai" or if they mean "I hate gay". Without more information, I tend to assume the latter... which puts me off hiring them for anything.

More than often they do mean "I hate gay". I have the exact same issue. Perhaps that's why it's a bad idea to put "I do/I don't"s. It's good to try warning your potential buyers that you don't have experience in drawing people kissing or giant robots, for example, but just saying "I don't like this, therefore I won't draw it" is a bit… eh… for those who have the option of ignoring potential clients. And very seen in DA by kids trying to get quick cash instead of someone who makes a living out of art/uses art as a complementary source of income.

[nyaatrap]

I have no idea what your last 'paragraph' means, by the way... It sounds kind of harsh, to be honest. I've worked with demanding commissioners and some have mentioned this type of artist. I'm not one of them. I'm not good enough to be that arrogant, nor would I ever want to be that prideful. Of course, what I've just said may not have anything to do with what you said... It's just REALLY CONFUSING to me.

Nevermind. LWR said well my euphemistic line. It's about a professional mind.
My opinion is 90% same to LWR on this matter, so I think I don't need to say something more with my wretched English.
(Though you got my point nonetheless if you find I'm harsh. I was trying to hide my harsh opinion and it turned out that confusing line)