A less boring Dating Sim Formula?

[Morhighan]

Quick introduction:
I mostly play kinetic novels, but I've been trying to branch out into dating sims, life sims, and other forms of visual novel-esque games. So far I haven't been very impressed with what I've seen with dating sims. Perfectly good stories are ruined by gameplay mechanics.

Now, I noticed with many dating sims/life sims, there's a lot of scheduling and stat raising. "I do this now, I do this later, etc." = "+Stat -Stat"
To me, it's boring as hell. It feels too grindy, which is saying something, coming from an avid fan of the Pokemon games.

I know that probably not all dating sims/life sims have this feature, so I'm wondering for the games that don't have you grind, what are their mechanics?
And for the games that do have you grind, how can those mechanics be improved? I want to be immersed in the story, not repeat actions until my wrist aches due to mouse clicks.

This has really gotten stuck on my mind because I've been playing these games, thinking to myself "this could be better...but how?"

TL;DR--
How can we improve dating sim mechanics to be less grindy and more immersive?

[Enigma]

One thing I was wondering about was rather than random stat raising minor choices we make define the character's personality (meaning they'd gain more character over time) and the characterization you built up determines what choices you can make later (like for example, building up a selfish character means a selfless choice would be stricken out down the line). functionally it's kinda similar to normal stat raising, but I think it would feel different to play.

[Laniessa]

Maybe Princess Maker style where you do everything in huge blocks, so it's less grindy, faster to go through the animations, and results are quicker? Scattered with random events.

Persona 3/4 had stats and it was a bit better, mostly because there was so much content in between, imo.

[trooper6]

Have you played "Coming Out On Top?" That doesn't use the day planner.
Most of the dating games that I've played which don't use the day planner (and there are a lot them it seems) just have you go through the story and track relationship points behind the scenes based on your choices.

I think the day planner style is just a different subset of the dating sim. My favorite of the day planner style is without a doubt the very excellent Magical Diary.

[Shaples]

Not all dating sims have stat raising, but of the ones that do, I think the best and least grindy ones are the games where the stats you raise have to do with the plot of the game rather than the romance itself. Having to force a stat to be able to unlock scenes for a romantic interest is a pain, but having your daily to-do list have some other effect is actually pretty fun. I'm going to go ahead and name names here, because Magical Diary does this BRILLIANTLY: you have your daily/weekly schedule, managing the classes you take and your stress levels, but other than a few events that are triggered by you taking certain classes at certain times, mostly these stats have nothing (directly) to do with who you're able to romance or when. Instead, they determine your ability to pass regular exams/the techniques you're able to use to do so. Whether you pass or fail CAN have an impact on your romantic relationships, but by and large the stat raising is in the background and happens more or less automatically as time passes, rather than something you have to force your way through every day. It probably also helps that you schedule a week worth of classes at once, and that events are triggered by calendar date rather than stat checkpoints, but yeah. In terms of stat raisers, Magical Diary is probably the least grindy one I've ever played, but it's also by far the most complexly constructed/written one, too.

Without a stat raising aspect, dating sim routes are determined entirely by player choices - you have dialogue options with characters that allow you to gain points with them, and eventually you either choose or are assigned a romantic interest based on those points, and finish off the game with their route/ending. Most shorter VNs work this way (See: Autumn's Journey/anything by Cyanide Tea), but there are plenty of longer games that do, too. The main romance mechanic in Magical Diary is like this as well.

Edit:

One thing I was wondering about was rather than random stat raising minor choices we make define the character's personality (meaning they'd gain more character over time) and the characterization you built up determines what choices you can make later (like for example, building up a selfish character means a selfless choice would be stricken out down the line). functionally it's kinda similar to normal stat raising, but I think it would feel different to play.

You should REALLY check out Aloners.

[Mad Harlequin]

Well, I can't say I know with certainty what works RE: stat-involved dating sim mechanics, but I think qirien's recently released Our Personal Space is a good example of a game that balances story progression with stat management. You pick your tasks for the month and then the narrative reflects what you've chosen, for good or ill. I never thought, "Well, gee, I just wasted time," because the story (colonizing a planet) is pretty compatible with this type of mechanic.

[KittyKatStar]

I loved Cinders' approach. At the beginning Cinder's personality isn't defined, but after a certain point the choices will influence how she acts later in the game and impact the ending.

And I echo Mad with Our Personal Space. A great balance because it felt you were always immersed in something after each click.

[Mad Harlequin]

One thing I was wondering about was rather than random stat raising minor choices we make define the character's personality (meaning they'd gain more character over time) and the characterization you built up determines what choices you can make later (like for example, building up a selfish character means a selfless choice would be stricken out down the line). functionally it's kinda similar to normal stat raising, but I think it would feel different to play.

If my understanding is correct, Our Personal Space does this---though it's not as much about the MC's personality as it is about having opportunities made available by reaching a certain level in a stat. I noticed this during my NG+ playthrough. (I'm talking about this one a lot, aren't I? Guess it's been on the brain recently. )

[gekiganwing]

You might want to look to Half Minute Hero for ideas. It's a humorous game in which random battles and level building happen at a rapid pace. Or, to a lesser extent, the indie game Fairune, in which combat is as simple as walking into an enemy, and the player doesn't need to worry about threats from low level monsters.

One thing that was notable about Summer Session was how it took place over a relatively short period of time. The story covers just six weeks of the characters' lives.

Think of ways to make sure the player doesn't feel instantly overwhelmed by options, and ways to reduce the feeling of "Am I making any progress?" halfway through the game. How can you do this? Here are some ideas...

* Keep the world small at first. For instance, at the beginning of Heartache 101, there are only a couple of characters, and few places to explore. The player can meet more characters and explore more places after just a few stat increases and gameplay actions.
* Offer the player hints or advice. I played the fan translations of the first two Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side games and enjoyed them. Both have an adviser character who can be helpful. Even so, I would have appreciated knowing even more information, such as "Do the career / college choices matter?" and "What stats and requirements are needed in order to have a good ending with __ character?"
* Consider offering stat bonuses for unlocking or trying things.
* Consider offering cheat codes that seriously increase stats.
* A main character whose stats are unusual. Hiyoko in Hatoful Boyfriend starts with 1 wisdom, 800 vitality, and 5 charisma. What if your main character began with quite a few Art points or Charm points?

Persona 3/4 had stats and it was a bit better, mostly because there was so much content in between, imo.

The main character in Persona 4 is told early on that relationships with people matter. His social circle will include friends, acquaintances, and at least one person in his family. They all provide real gameplay benefits. He has several girls in his age group as possible love interests. Each time he gets to a relatively high intimacy level with one of them, the player is reminded that it's an important decision with no turning back.

Overall, I liked the social link system in P4. It was not too stressful or challenging. I kinda wish that the same events didn't happen each time, but that's a small complaint.

[papillon]

Another game worth looking at for ideas on how to do stat-raising differently - Little Witch Romanesque.

Since this is, at the moment, an h-game and not everyone may be into that, I'll try to explain how it works.

You're raising and training two little witch girls. They start with some basic stats which determine the maximum brain points they can hold in different categories. (bear with me, 'brain points' is a stupid term but I don't know the official one). So the first thing you can do is send them to class, where they will roll dice to generate brain points in those different categories and at the end of the week keep all the points they've collected, up to their stat max. You can manipulate the dice slightly to affect what sort of points they get, or you can just sit back and watch.

Next, spending those points. You need those points in order to learn spells. There's a huge skill-web of spells that have to be unlocked in various orders, and each spell has a brain cost. So after you've been to class and filled up your brain pool, you spend those stored points learning new spells.

What are the spells for? Well, there are various Quests available. Every Quest has spells listed that it requires (you can never fail a quest, you aren't allowed to start it at all until you have all the spells needed). Completing a Quest will have various effects - it may earn you relationship points towards one of the MANY characters available, it may unlock new rooms or items, or it may increase one of the stat maximums of one of the girls.

The spells do another thing, though. Spells can be cast during class if the dice roll the right pattern to summon that spell, and the spell will then vastly change how many brain points you gain from the class. When you first start the game you're getting a pitiful fifteen points a week (rolling three dice five times). By the time you've maxed out your spell list, you can pull in tens of thousands.

... Of course even with max learning speed, you can't learn all the spells and solve all the quests FAST enough to complete everything in a single playthrough, it's not possible, so things will always be slipping...

Basically, it's complicated and quite addictive. You can't just grind one or two activities, you have to build up long plans of this-then-that-then-this, while rolling the dice and watching the fancy visual effects.

[jack_norton]

Interesting discussion, since I've wanted to break away from the scheduler or the most common dating sims system since I find them boring too. Might not happen in the game already in production but for new ones I'd like to try those ideas

[Rosstin]

Scheduler isn't a bad mechanic but isn't a GOOD mechanic either.

Personally when I make a dating game, I just write the best story I can and I keep track of the decisions the player makes throughout the game. For scheduler type things, just let the player choose where they want to go and what they want to do when they have a real choice. Unanchor events occuring in sequence [relationship breakpoint scenes or events that can happen on day # if you choose to go to a specific place or see a specific person] but anchor events occuring according to a specific schedule [ie on Day 3 there is a flash flood and you can only save one of your boyfriends from it, you only see this event on day 3].

[netravelr]

For Culina, we went a much more Personasque route where you develop relationships by choosing to spend time with that character. In addition to who you spend time with, where you are in other people's relationships matter as well. This is only in one of the relationships in Culina, but it's something I'd want to explore more of in the future. This is much more content driven, but it does make the experience feel more natural and less grindy on first playthrough.

That's not to say that points and randomness don't have a place, they certainly can and will be used to create conditions for things to happen in a story. We kind of use that for the main storyline, if you don't make this amount of money, you can't keep the store; but it's used more to give you multiple things to care about and give the player agency, making them feel like their choices matter which is what I think needs to be focused on when it comes to games in general, not just dating sims.

Rather than doing everything in large chunks like via a week, another thing I find that is interesting to do is actually have the parts of the day be part of the player's experience. This is what we did in Love at the Laundromat, and I think it worked out really well.

Of course, you can always playtest mechanics and gauge player feedback to making your decisions as I think that's the most important thing.

[LPRe]

To be honest I mostly play romance dating sims, so I'm not sure about systems that other kinds have implemented, but I'm not a big fan of the stats style either. I find it kind of chore-like, and sometimes overwhelming -- it's hard for me to like because I'm one of those people who doesn't have a lot of patience for repeat events(like scenes are exactly the same across every route).

Personally I've always like the simple, kind of traditional I guess(?) way of just choice picking and seeing the story. I like the way DMMD did it, with the generic route and then depending on choices made in the generic route, a romantic route, but that formula isn't really interactive, if that's what you're looking for. The dice thing posted above actually seems like a really neat mechanic -- admittedly though, one that'd probably make my head spin.

I've always liked games like persona(though I've only Really played 3, I've seen plenty of 4 and 2 thanks to friends), so putting in a kind of dating battle system has been one of my ideas for a while. Something like an strategy-rpg mixed heavily with the major points of a date sim -- having to fight battles to see scenes and branching into different routes depending on what battles you fight in the overarching plot. I also kind of like having a personality quiz at the beginning and having alternate versions of the protag, with different reactions to choices or different choices all together, or different reactions from the dateables -- different personalities can say the same thing in very different ways after all. Minigames seem interesting, but I've yet to think of a way to plug them in that'd satisfy me -- puzzles and the like are always an option though, I've seen them used.

Honestly though, I think a strong story really is what makes or breaks a VN. Gameplay is great, and cool game mechanics are great, but the most immersive thing (to me) would probably just be good, or at least interesting, writing.

[Emmerah]

I myself really dislike the grindy feeling of stat raising in dating sims, but then when it isn't there games tend to feel kind of bland.. Though I didn't feel that at all when I played through Aloners (that game is so good!!) so maybe it's more a case of having interesting writing? Thinking about it, I do tend to enjoy more personality driven gameplay.

I think Stat raising stuff needs to be more of a path/solution opener than anything else.. It gets really frustrating when you're in the last couple weeks of a game and you've managed to reach all the goals up 'til then but come the final scene you're just a few points off of getting the 100% ending and you have no clue where you lost those points (This happens to me a bit, so maybe I'm just bad at playing games?).

Basically stat raising isn't a substitute for story/good writing.