Would you play a VN without a narrator?

[Cybeat]

Would you play a visual novel game that doesn't have a character that narrates the story? You know, a game that let's you figure out what's going on yourself. Right now I'm planning on making a horror visual novel game. I'll explain things in another thread soon. It's a little bit based on what happened on one of my field trip experiences.

[EccentricKarma]

Are we talking about the main characters narrator or just a narrator in general? I'm more of a narrator person myself. I like stories and details within a game rather than just clicking options and being told what you clicked and what you're seeing. : \ I don't know, I guess having a narrator gives it more feeling, if that makes any sense.

[papillon]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean only visuals and dialog, no descriptive text? This is problematic unless you have a lot of sound and animation to convey the missing details. It can be done, it just depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell...

[monele]

I don't see how it would be a problem... but you'll always need to describe things, either through dialogue, or through 3rd person descriptions.

[chronoluminaire]

Well, if it's "letting you figure out what's going on by yourself" by describing things to the player in terms of "You see a forest" or suchlike, then that's the old question about first person vs second person vs third person.

Assuming the VN has characters, then I think the concept of "a VN without a narrator" is the same as "a VN in second or third person". I can't imagine how something could be one without being the other, but I'm happy to be proved wrong

[Samu-kun]

Mmm... I attempted writing all of Raidaa in the third person. It was not a good idea since it increased the CG burden to the point where it was unmanageable without another person since I pretty much had to show all the action instead of just describing it with text. Not to mention I had to include alot of funny sounding dialouge where the characters have to explain what they're seeing to a much greater degree than most people would in real life. I would definately recommend that you use a narrator who tells the story through the first person perspective.

[papillon]

I can't imagine how something could be one without being the other, but I'm happy to be proved wrong

See, I was thinking of Animamundi. Which, iirc, is in third person, but does have a narrator - an entirely separate narrator who is telling the story about the characters you see. The old-lady voice reads the lines that are not spoken by characters in the scene.

[Cybeat]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean only visuals and dialog, no descriptive text? This is problematic unless you have a lot of sound and animation to convey the missing details. It can be done, it just depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell...

No. You know how the protagonist is always narrating the story? I'm talking about nobody narrating the story. We find out what happens by reading the texts, like "Oh no! He's about to get killed!......Too late. He died." as if we're watching anime with subtitles. That was a bad example...

[papillon]

... watching anime with subtitles is exactly what I just asked, though. Watching an anime, you get only dialog (people talking) and sound/visuals. But the anime format can convey a lot more information like this than a static-image VN can. It can certainly be done - read some "silent comics" - but to do it well requires much more cinematic skill, in order to convey enough information in an interesting enough way.

So I'm still confused what you mean.

[Cybeat]

... watching anime with subtitles is exactly what I just asked, though. Watching an anime, you get only dialog (people talking) and sound/visuals. But the anime format can convey a lot more information like this than a static-image VN can. It can certainly be done - read some "silent comics" - but to do it well requires much more cinematic skill, in order to convey enough information in an interesting enough way.

So I'm still confused what you mean.

Well, sorry. I can't elaborate anymore.

[sake-bento]

Without a narrator? Like the average first-person style, right? There are a couple different ways I could imagine this playing out:

-Choose your Own Adventure
"You are in a small room and you see a door at the far end."
A. Open the door
B. Knock on the door

-Storytelling
"Jason raced across the room, reaching desperately for the door. 'LET ME OUT!' he screamed as he pounded his fist against it."

-Kamishibai
[Image of Jason running across the room.]
[Image of Jason pounding on the door.]
[Text on screen: "LET ME OUT!"]

I think all would be pretty interesting. The third would take a lot of work, but I think it would be cool. In a way, it would be like reading a comic book.

[Cybeat]

Without a narrator? Like the average first-person style, right? There are a couple different ways I could imagine this playing out:

-Choose your Own Adventure
"You are in a small room and you see a door at the far end."
A. Open the door
B. Knock on the door

-Storytelling
"Jason raced across the room, reaching desperately for the door. 'LET ME OUT!' he screamed as he pounded his fist against it."

-Kamishibai
[Image of Jason running across the room.]
[Image of Jason pounding on the door.]
[Text on screen: "LET ME OUT!"]

I think all would be pretty interesting. The third would take a lot of work, but I think it would be cool. In a way, it would be like reading a comic book.

Yeah, something like that. Mine is like:

I would show a background picture of an empty room with the 2 protagonists.
Character 1: "This room is empty."
Play "noise"
Character 2: "You heard that?"
Character 1: "Yeah. What was that?"
Then I would bring up a CG of a zombie.
Character 2: "OMG! It's a zombie! Run!"
Character 1: "I can't move.....I'm terrified!"
Character 2: "I found an axe!"
I would bring up a bloody CG (my game will be a bit gory.)
Character 1: "What a relief. Let's get out of here!"
I would bring up a new background picture.
Notice how I didn't have any character narrate? I use CGs and text to show what happens.

[Vatina]

As Papillon said, Animamundi is told in third person perspective, and it works well. So if that is what you meant, then yes it can be done.
Most of what you see in books can be done in a VN I believe.

[Cybeat]

I was a bit cofused too because I didn't know what anima mundi was until I looked it up.

[papillon]

We're still all talking about different things - AnimaMundi *does* have a narrator and is nothing like the example Cybeat just wrote. Which is why I'm so frustratedly confused, because everyone keeps 'agreeing' while not talking about the same thing at all.

I would show a background picture of an empty room with the 2 protagonists.
Character 1: "This room is empty."
Play "noise"
Character 2: "You heard that?"
Character 1: "Yeah. What was that?"
Then I would bring up a CG of a zombie.
Character 2: "OMG! It's a zombie! Run!"
Character 1: "I can't move.....I'm terrified!"
Character 2: "I found an axe!"
I would bring up a bloody CG (my game will be a bit gory.)
Character 1: "What a relief. Let's get out of here!"
I would bring up a new background picture.
Notice how I didn't have any character narrate? I use CGs and text to show what happens.

The problem you're going to face here is like I said from the beginning.

In an actual anime, you will see all kinds of actions that are not mentioned here at all. Emotional impact will be conveyed through animation, through sound, and through cinematography.

A well-directed fight scene full of dramatic camera angles has a totally different impact on the viewer than

Picture of zombie.
Picture of dead zombie.

A fight scene could go on a long time and be full of tense moments, when it looks like the zombie is going to win. The music will change during the course of the battle to try and guide your emotions along the shape that the director wants.

A book will have to just write the actions out in detail, moment by moment.

A VN will generally have to write it out in less detail, because there's usually some picture, and also the VN has the timing element to consider - the effect of the player clicking to advance factors into the emotional impact. How much text do you show at once? Where do you put the tension? It's not the same as a book.

A comic book will have to choose only a few dramatic images and possibly a few words in order to convey the fight - so those images and words need to be very carefully chosen.

It will be *more difficult* for you to write an emotional story without narration, because you'll need to be very good at art direction in order to convey the information that isn't directly presented. You'll also need a much better artist than you would if you were telling the story through words.

Otherwise you will end up with something that is flat, and at best, a dull comedy.

Can it be done? Sure. But it's *not* easy. I'd suggest studying a lot of scary movies and seeing how they build suspense. (And comics... are there any scary comics? Maybe some Batman issues.)

There's a big list of 'silent' comics at http://www.lib.msu.edu/comics/rhode/wordless.htm