The usage of "you"

[Mikan]

It's not that weird..
Here's something I'd write:

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You enter the cold, early morning classroom. To your surprise, there is already someone here ahead of you.
Wendy "Oh, hey %(pc)s. You're here early."
Not completely certain as to who you're talking to, you respond with hesitation.
It takes your eyes a while to recognize who it is, but you recognize the voice.
pc "Yeah, sure is..."

[Samu-kun]

Yeah, that does kinda feel awkward. o_o; It feels like somebody's controlling me like a muppet. Unless the story is about some sort of a psychic who takes control of other people's bodies, I wouldn't try doing it. XD

[klang]

You know, if you use second tense properly, you may be amazed at how well it works. It's almost as if you enjoy be told what to do by the author at times, but reaching the level or writing is rare and usually not attempted.

I always thought that this was an interesting method of using the second tense. Regardless, remember that there's a huge list on the ways that using second tense can make everything go so terribly wrong.
http://partners.nytimes.com/books/98/09 ... riter.html

[Mikan]

hmm.. I started writing the game without giving a second thought about using the word you, so this has been quite an interesting thread. I didn't think you guys would be so bothered about you since text-based adventures (that use you all the time!) are practically the grandmom and granddad of modern day VNs.

I'm tempted to release a text-only game to see what people's reactions are to second-person writing. Whether or not it'll be unbearably bad, or if it will be different but workable.

[rocket]

A lot has been said on this thread about whether 2nd person feels like a command, or whether it breaks the illusion of immersion.

However I think my my major motivation for avoiding it is slightly different. I feel that use of second person inevitably concedes a more fundamental stylistic decision : describing actions, and emotions versus leaving such things implicit from the visuals and dialogue.

In general I think that emotion is best expressed in action. Through words expression or body movement. It has much more impact to 'hear' Mary sobbing "Boo hoo~", and 'see' her shivering in the snow, than to be be told "Mary was standing in the snow. She was cold and sad."

Furthermore when you have a visual medium, expressions and physical action are most powerfully expressed visually because that's how we perceive the real world.

Therefore I don't want to describe anybody's thoughts and actions - which includes all the characters not just my protagonist.

I personally feel this is a valid design imperative, even in a text adventure game! "Glass" comes to mind, which consists primarily of your dialog and other dialog in response to you, and almost no description of any action, much less your own action. In most text adventures it's nearly impossible to avoid describing action, (much like it would be in most a novels), though I still think you should imply emotion out of the described action and observation. However in a VN when you have the choice of showing vs telling, I want to show.

This is certainly a personal and stylistic choice, however for modern audiences who consume tv, comics, movies and novels which follow the conventions of showing over telling, such an approach may seem mannered or not as immediate.

[eezergoode]

IIRC, almsot all of the old Infocom games (Zork, Wishbringer, etc) used "you", instead of first person. It worked with those quite well, and I think in the right setting and type of game, it would be a good thing. I think it really depends on how you set the story up and lay it out, really. However, if you ARE going to use "you", don't railroad the character, let them make ALL of the decisions, and decide for themselves how to react. The you just relate the specifics, and how things play out. This, however, requires far more work on your part.

Basically, ask them what they want to do, and then tell them how it plays out, and try to keep from telling them what they think, or feel, other than simple subtle hints, such as "That seems a bit odd to you, but to each his own."

Something like "You really don't like Bob, since he married your highschool sweetheart." makes the player feel you are forcing them into a persona.

[Mikan]

let them make ALL of the decisions, and decide for themselves how to react.

Now that you mention it, I've been concerned that my game has too many choices, but it's only in the beginning when the main character needs to define himself. ... so maybe all those choices are actually necessary.

[azureXtwilight]

Oh, I remember, Persona 3 uses this kind of narration too.

"You decided to study....." or "You feel tired...."

[LVUER]

Oh, I remember, Persona 3 uses this kind of narration too.

"You decided to study....." or "You feel tired...."

Yeah! You're right! Completely forgot about that...
Now if I remember correctly, there are lots of game that use "You" in the narration. The game itself in first person (or none at all/almost no narration). Although it only used in "You recovered All HP and MP", "You lost the item" kind of things...

[Showsni]

Pretty much every Choose Your Own Adventure style book is in second person, and they lend themselves pretty easy to a Visual Novel format. You have to take them with a grain of salt... Mostly they avoid saying what your thoughts, feelings, etc. are, because you're supposed to be feeling them yourself.

[azureXtwilight]

But in Persona 3 it said "You feel tired."

Isn't that a feeling too?

But I like this kind of narration, it's rather.... unique.
And visual novels in renai.us rarely use this kind of narration!

[Jake]

But in Persona 3 it said "You feel tired."

Isn't that a feeling too?

It's not what most people mean when they say "feelings". Feeling tired is a physical sensation, wheras "feelings" usually refers to emotional sensations.

It's a lot more reasonable to tell someone what they're feeling physically, because it's something that's a lot easier to deduce from outside of that person. Are they standing at the north pole in a t-shirt and shorts? They're probably feeling cold. Are they being stabbed in the chest? They're probably feeling pain. Conversely, someone whose girlfriend just walked out on them could be feeling pretty much anything emotionally - "I'm so distraught, I'll never find another girl like her" to "thank goodness she's gone, now I can get on with my life" to "who was that again" and so on. Two people in an identical scene will both feel similar physical pain at being stabbed or similar tiredness at running a marathon, but a guy who likes clingy, dependent girls might feel upset that a particular girl walked out when a second guy who prefers independent, strong girls might have found that character annoying and be happy she's gone.

[azureXtwilight]

*Nods* *nods*

Okay, I get it right now.
So this one's a physical feeling, not emotional feeling.
I agree not to describe emotional feelings in the using of "you", then.

Hey! Then who narrates the story then? XD

[Jake]

Hey! Then who narrates the story then? XD

This question was more or less the entire point of the thread.

In a first-person story ("I went to school"), the protagonist is a separate person from the reader, relating their story to the reader.

In a second-person story ("You go to school"), the reader is the protagonist, being told about their story by an impersonal narrator.

In a third-person story ("Bob went to school"), the reader is an observer, being related an independent character's story by an impersonal narrator.

[azureXtwilight]

Hey! Then who narrates the story then? XD

In a second-person story ("You go to school"), the reader is the protagonist, being told about their story by an impersonal narrator.

In a third-person story ("Bob went to school"), the reader is an observer, being related an independent character's story by an impersonal narrator.

Who's this impersonal narrator I meant XD

Stupid question for joke purpose only, the answer "Of course the game-maker!" XD XD XD XD