Magical Boutique II [MB1 spoilers!]

[PyTom]

I went ahead and created a Frameworks page on the site, and moved the DSE to it. (I'll be dropping the DSE from Ren'Py proper, so that it's not unduly privledged over better frameworks.) Renpygame may also live there, I haven't decided yet.

[monele]

The MB1 framework could certainly be improved a lot ^^;... And there's always the question of going Ren'Py or going Python. MB1 was clearly very Python... while the new project is trying to be as Ren'Py as possible (for me). It's always a balance between repeating code yet making it simple... or factorize everything but have a very complex system.

[monele]

Video :
http://monele.ifrance.com/divers/MagBou ... mework.txt (rename to AVI... 8.63Mb, Xvid)
Youtube version : http://youtube.com/watch?v=7EOctxvs5dQ (should be safer...)

Did this today... I didn't work specifically on MB2, just on the framework and the subtitle style.
The scene just shows an example of what it could be like if MB2 ended up existing ô_o...

So.... does this look like something that would be fun to play or does it look too... obviously linear or something? ^^;... I have bad memories of linear games with illusions of choice (Nocturnal Illusions, Paradise Heights, DiviDead). Not that they were *bad*, but the game system felt totally useless. I'm scared I'm falling into the same trap ^^;...

NOTE : story might not make sense!!... It's a mix between "MB2 starts right after F&P have left" and "MB2 starts right before F&P come back" ^^;;...

[rocket]

I have to confess I didn't watch through the whole movie but... for what it's worth here is my impression from the beginning 1/4...

My overwhelming impression was that of a graphical text adventure, like Guild of Thieves or the Pawn.

That kind of game is very nostalgic and appealing in its own right, but personally I think that it's kind of a niche system where the assumptions about the way the game world is simulated impose rather unfair restrictions on the experience.

For example, everybody likes to complain about how in Point and Click Adventure Games like King's Quest or Indiana Jones there are puzzles that consist of finding a tiny 3 pixel grey object among a field of grey. You just have to click on everything obsessively and notice totally obscure irrelevant things. Yet for many text based adventures many of the puzzles consist of the logical equivalent: try every combination of verbs and nouns and examine every seemingly irrelevant adjective of every item. I find these things tedious. Another thing I find tedious and essentially the a variant same problem is the "wander around to every location looking for something relevant to do." This one seems to plauge both genres quite equally.

Why do I find this type of gameplay acceptable - indeed enticing - in Castlevania and Metroid? I suspect it's because there the wandering is also accompanied by feats of reflexes and skills. In adventure games its just drudgery.

As you can tell by now, I'm not so excited about it in MB2... (^_^);;

However its an interesting question. Precisely because there is always the temptation to do so.

My personal guess right now is that game makes are tempted to create an "interactive place model" because they want to enhance the simulation and immersiveness of the game and story. However, I think the genius of VNs, and what makes them successful, is their relentless economy of stripping away needless simulation.

While not every choice matters ultimately, every choice presented is generally an emotionally engaging choice. The simulation which contributes to the story is what makes it ultimately engaging. If not, then it's just a chore.

That's why I think the gathering places in MB1 work. They're presented as part of the daily choice which is part of the store simulation. If you can only go so many places in one day, and that has an obvious bearing on the plot, then its relevant and the expected impact of your actions gives them meaning. But even in that case I'd rather choose "goto town" vs "goto the country" rather than "go north, go west, open gate, go west."

I like to contrast Emily Short's Galatea with Glass to illustrate this. Both are conversational text adventures. There is no movement to take, no inventory, nothing but the players' interaction with Galatea. Yet Galatea simulates only the flow of the conversation, where Glass also assumes the traditional text adventure convention of simulating the flow of time. Half of the players's successful actions in Glass are simply to wait and let the conversation unfold, whereas in Galetea each action is relevant.

I guess I can't think of a story experience where changing locations is intrinsically emotionally engaging without some significant plot element.

Which is all a long winded way of saying...
In general I don't like it! (^_^);;

[Mr. E]

So.... does this look like something that would be fun to play or does it look too... obviously linear or something? ^^;... I have bad memories of linear games with illusions of choice (Nocturnal Illusions, Paradise Heights, DiviDead). Not that they were *bad*, but the game system felt totally useless. I'm scared I'm falling into the same trap ^^;...

Well, it's as linear as you want it to be, no more, no less. For example, if the only way to advance the story would be to go into the restaurant and order a meal, then why even bother having all those options? They will at best add some flavour to the story, and at worse get the player stuck, trying all options to proceed which is not good. However, if the choices DO affect the story in a significant way, then it would be great, very inlienar, and unfortunately much harder to do as well.
For example: Let's say that the player will have the opportunity (Remember I mentioned "opportunity", not "obligation") to have lunch there a few times... If in these visits the player really bothers Charlotte, rings the bell every goddamn time, forgets to compliment her, etc... After some time she might ban the player from entering the restaurant! If however he is gentlemanly, patient and contributes with a fair amount to the restaurant, she may give him discounts, new recipies or even start liking him. But if the player ignores the restaurant, then that's ok... This give the player an oportunity to control the character and change the story (the new recipie could really come in handy, and the romantic intrest is obviously a dynamic factor.) The problem is, as you must have realized by now, it's horrendously time-consuming and therefore, may disencourage the game creator. With more power comes more responsability ( Been reding spider-man too much... ) The freedom that the creator is willing to give the character comes with a lot more work, and a much more flexible story.
P.S. (MUCH, MUCH later... After I Finish my current project, I may be intrested in doing something with your "frame". As you may have noticed, I actually liked it, and think it would be ideal for a certain future project... But that's a long time away, and things may change... )

[monele]

Ohh, response ^^... Let's tackle this

try every combination of verbs and nouns and examine every seemingly irrelevant adjective of every item. I find these things tedious.

I do hate this and pixel hunting too

"wander around to every location looking for something relevant to do." This one seems to plauge both genres quite equally.

Mmmm, true... I guess it's a bit weird that you'd just walk around, goal-less... and that you'd go to places "because you can". But I conceive how it's not easy to give the player good reasons to do whatever he does at all times... Some games like the Monkey Island series don't suffer so much from it because they're based on a silly humor.

My personal guess right now is that game makes are tempted to create an "interactive place model" because they want to enhance the simulation and immersiveness of the game and story. However, I think the genius of VNs, and what makes them successful, is their relentless economy of stripping away needless simulation.

At this point, I feel I have to at least give my reasons ^^.

I have two very different projects in my bag : Utsukushii Planet and Magical Boutique. The first one is as classic as VN get... story story story choice story story story. While MagBou is the opposite : choice choice choice story choice choice choice. Result? I find UP boring after a while because all I do is read. I can only take so much Fate/Stay Night before I feel like moving around and *do* something, physically. And when it comes to MagBou, while I really enjoyed creating the whole game system, I now feel very reluctant to touch it. It's not very complex but enough to make me dread having to modify it... and I don't even feel like playing it because I tend to think "argh, I'll have to spent 30 turns doing repetitive clicks just to see that one particular scene".
Goal number 1 : make a more balanced mix so that I don't get bored, and don't feel like the game system is feeding me story bits once a year.

Goal number 2 : immersion. Yes, it's true, I tend to think the player will have a better understanding of the world if he has to "live" in it. Just learning the layout of places would help. Maybe I'm a bit sick of being dragged along in some VNs (it really depends on the VN I guess...)

Goal number 3 : ease the pain of writing. While I can write stuff, I have a hard time writing everything from point A to point B. I dread character introductions and prefer to show well acquainted characters for example. And when it comes to VNs, I guess I don't like having to describe absolutely everything, even some trivial transitions. Maybe it's my habit of wanting to justify everything that forces me to think of a reason *why* the character would go see A first instead of B... instead of just skipping to the scene directly ^^;...
In any case, I like the idea of turning that part into a game system because it suddenly doesn't really demand any explanation. The character went to see A... because the player chose to do so.

Goal number 4 : unapparent choices, freedom, more game in the VN. It's all mixed, really ^^;... Here's the thing : I wouldn't be able to play an adventure game nowadays (point & click, text adventure, Myst puzzles...) because I'd get frustrated too easily and be afraid of losing my time (some P&C puzzles were *really* hard just because you couldn't think of what the author thought of). I really like VN in that aspect : it's *very* easy to play and not frustrating since the game/story goes on at all times.
What I don't like, though, is how choices tend to be so... obvious... or the total opposite (mikey, I'm looking at you ;p). I don't mind it so much when I think "I'm just exploring possible paths of a story" but I've come to wish for something more... something that would require a *little* thinking and planning to get the ending you want.
It's hard to describe and I really don't know yet if it's even possible to keep a VNish experience while making it harder... yet not too hard @_@...
The idea of my system in that regard is that it allows to give more choices without it being overwhelming. It doesn't require you to click or hover around : it shows possibilities right away. It doesn't require you to use verbs and objects together : it shows logical actions in a contextual way. It doesn't require you to find the hidden exit : it shows all the reachable locations from where you are.
The biggest problem is to find a balance between this simplification and keeping some challenge that won't make all the actions obvious to the player.

It's really what's making me go crazy >.>... I want a challenge... but I don't want a frustrating challenge. I'm thinking "let the player make mistakes and deal with the consequences"... but I know I hate games that let you do something stupid that blocks you later. I'm thinking "let's put possibilities accessible by going off the usual path"... but I know I hate games that are so cryptic that you can only discover the interesting bits by using a FAQ.

To go back to my pet peeves : games with obvious choices could achieve the same result by asking you from the beginning "who do you want to end with?" and then serve you a kinetic novel. Really, if to get Maria's ending, all you have to do is "be nice with Maria", "save Maria", "kiss Maria"... there's not much "game" in there. (I know, I know, these VNs are probably not intended to be games ^^).
As for the cryptic ones, I feel I'd get the same result by letting the game choose for myself since I usually have *no* idea what will happen next. *throws a dice*.


In the end, I hesitate between two things : either have an adventure system which is somewhat challenging (probably hard to balance) or have very straightforward VN choices... but in a way that gives varied consequences that *make sense*... yet are not too obvious... and still let you do something about them.
Can I give an example for the latter? *ponders*... Eeeeh... I guess not :/...

But even in that case I'd rather choose "goto town" vs "goto the country" rather than "go north, go west, open gate, go west."

Do note that I don't use cardinal points , except in the MB2 town center... something I could actually simplify into "go to the restaurant, go to the florist". If I could, I'd actually put a list of all possible rooms at all times... but it would get tedious to find what you're looking for... So there is at least a need for "groups" of locations being accessible from specific points.

I hope I have answered at least a few questions, even unasked ones . My biggest question for you would be : do you think there's a way that this adventure system would end up pleasing you, through modifications, or is it just that you can't like a VN with this system?


Now onto Mr. E's post ^^

if the only way to advance the story would be to go into the restaurant and order a meal, then why even bother having all those options?

My thoughts, exactly... and I'd like to avoid that.

If in these visits the player really bothers Charlotte, rings the bell every goddamn time, forgets to compliment her, etc... After some time she might ban the player from entering the restaurant! If however he is gentlemanly, patient and contributes with a fair amount to the restaurant, she may give him discounts, new recipies or even start liking him. But if the player ignores the restaurant, then that's ok...

This is closer to my plan, yes ^^. I think that by giving more options and make things optionals (contrary to a VN choice which you *have* to make), you dilute the obvious among the flavor... and you could take into account various things such as the number of times you went there... how nice you were (complimenting, helping). In a regular VN, it'd be "Your cooking is delicious!" "Isn't there too much salt?" "Toilets, toilets!!"... Oh now it's so hard to guess which one makes Charlotte like you >.>...
Ok, ok... I agree it's just as easy to be nice to Charlotte in this adventure system as it is ^^;... Argh...

Ok... how do you make a game which is challenging and makes sense... yet is accessible for everyone and not too obvious? o_O... Is it even possible? ^^;...

After I Finish my current project, I may be intrested in doing something with your "frame".

Feel free to ask for the latest version if/when you reach that part


EDIT : Ahem... forgot a little something :3...
If this adventure thingie really doesn't work out, there is another "system" I'd like to try : an exploration system. Basically, there would be no difficulty at all as in "no puzzles" and you would be able to roam around a set world and get to explore it. Think "Morrowind", BUT... there would be an emphasis on people. In the MB2 world, an example would be how you would choose wether to visit Charlotte at the restaurant or the Hana Sisters or Minya... And there wouldn't be anything really blocking you... so the game would just flow and progress depending on what you focus on.
It's really an unformed idea in my mind and I don't know if it would work... or even if it doesn't exist already ô_o... but I *think* there's something good in there.

[Otaku Dash]

This dillema is exactly what I faced with the Idea of the project I had "Kaiser - Balde of the soul". What I tryed to pull was more a "Adveture/Rpg - VN" hybrid... but then It became too frustrating to pull it off. I agree what monele says about having something compeling yet interesting... I mean... the problem with most VN's is just that: You know wich option probably gets the ending you want (except for mikeys works.. those are very fuffiling but scare me a bit due I'm to sensible and always put myself in the charas shoes... *remembers when he had 12th garde problems and played milk swim... got too scared to finish it XD* Not that's saying it's a bad thing ;P ^^ I'm addicted to all VN's *laughs*).

In my aproach I had something to multiple stages in an action-Rpg kind where you could do various strategies... kinda like Elven Relations but with a more battle oriented scenario... basicly you could protect the girls and get points of interaction.. wich in turn could help on getting events and such. Another thing would be the kaiser blade katana... wich would have a shift in the players personality (in terms of balance... kinda like good and evil in Fable)... it was an interesting aporach but it was deemed impossible to me (at least for now.. I still haven't give up the idea..).

What I see here is that desire to acomplish something challenging... so the "choice-consequence" thing is kinda plain to pull off. SO as hard as it may seem... there has to be amiddle point between.... more freedom normally equals less writing stress, but can strain the balance of the middle point, wich is the idea of the project...

"Going aimless" Is a big problem in these kind of projects... so in the end you always have to have so kind of event to trigger a stop on that freedom, and make the user to act... due to day activities you can force teh player to "EAT" cause he needs to, therefore having an excuse to visit charlotte.... that however may shound a cheap way to create events.

In the end explorations seems to give mroe safety on this kinds of problems... but then again it's your call... if it's about people the system could be similar to PK girl (ok by far... but bear with me)... in the end it depends on the prespective you want your charas to interact with the world... or as I like to say.. the "2 wises": "Area" wise... or "people" wise.

Gack... In the end I feel I didn't say anything of worth :S

[monele]

Eheh, I can see I'm not the only one struggling with this concept ^^

there has to be amiddle point between.... more freedom normally equals less writing stress,

That's what I want to believe for now ^^;... And relieving some writing stress is essential for me as I just can't pull off a full novel where everything is described. I know it's a bit "cheap", but hey... I'm not really a writer... I can pull off scenes, just not really make complete stories. Sprinkling scenes over a game system seems like the right solution.

"Going aimless" Is a big problem in these kind of projects... so in the end you always have to have so kind of event to trigger a stop on that freedom, and make the user to act...

Yep... I don't think you can really leave out goals and triggers. Mm... I guess one could make some sort of arborescent content : go in town > go to restaurant > talk to Charlotte > order meal > eat meal. This would be *one* branch... and there would be another choice when talking to her... and maybe someone else to talk to, or something else to do in the restaurant... and there would be another places in the town with the same kind of arborescence... etc... But it would be a matter of trying each and every choice and then.... then what? There's no flow.
Instead, going in the restaurant and ordering a meal could trigger a new conversation choice "it was good!" which could give a few love points... which could trigger something else when accumulated (new choices, an event the next time you come back...).

due to day activities you can force teh player to "EAT" cause he needs to, therefore having an excuse to visit charlotte.... that however may shound a cheap way to create events.

In the original MB, the plan was that going to the restaurant was a group activity during the weekend. Each person you brought with you would eat and get morale back because... it's so good ... But of course, the meals would cost enough money to make it a "once in a while treat". Thus, a player could decide to keep money for vehicles and not go to the restaurant often... but if you did go often, it would further the Charlotte path and make her a bigger part of your life.
The only problem is that by linking such "choices" to other things (stats, money), it might become a non-choice. If a meal is expensive, and vehicles are *mandatory* to keep up with quests, chances are no one will spend much money at the restaurant ^^;... Only the most dedicated people would go at Charlotte's... but then could they keep playing the regular game? *shrugs*...
But of course, without such earthly consequences, maybe it wouldn't be fun at all... at least, it wouldn't be "gameish" ^^;.

In the end explorations seems to give mroe safety on this kinds of problems...

I'm starting to think exploration would look a lot like my arborescence example :/... I'm not sure ^^;


And as a side note on my main projects and how I'm still struggling to pick one...
I'd like Magical Boutique 2 to be less about stats and more about story. Stats make me go crazy now ^^;... Problem? The very concept of MB doesn't really go hand in hand with adventures or even novels. Tell me if you see it in a different way but I think the fun of MB was that nothing comes right away and characters get better at what they do with time. This is easily expressable with stats, but harder, for me, with a story. What kind of choices would you have to do if MagBou was a regular VN?

Warp Onsen Manager, which I might not have talked about, was the first one to get the adventure system. Think of Love Hina mixed with UFO Princess Valkyrie + more crazyness. I first planned it as yet another management game... but found it even harder to come up with an interesting system. So it turned into an adventure... but again, I'm struggling to find something interesting that could happen... and what kind of choices the player could make in that kind of environment ^^;...

Utsukushii Planet, most likely candidate for now... and of course it's the only one that doesn't really use the adventure system XD... Go, go, my logic!
As I see it now, UP would be in two parts : one adventureish part on the ship where you can talk to passengers/crew (just like in the demo), decide where to go (planet map ), explore the ship. And once you move to a planet, you'd get regular VN scenes with regular VN choices (for some reason, I can't image the room gimmick to be interesting in "unknown" places... ô_o). I'd also like to add *some* stats in the way of being able to drop some of your crew in various places for... various effects. Examples? Drop Fabellia in a galactic bar for happehness. Drop Amy and Max in a galactic flea market and they might find *the* piece of machinery of their dreams... at a low price . Now... do these things give love points?... or some morale? I don't know yet.
I also have a plan for "allies" of sorts. Meet new people, be diplomatic and maybe drop someone relevant to their interests (Katania stays for a few months, teaching them self defense) and you'll get yourself some allies.
Finally... since moving the ship around burns fuel and fuel costs money, you'll be able to pick missions off the InterGalNet.
Ohohhh... as you can see, I'm already going too far XD... ah well... t'is mah nature I guess :5...

[rocket]

I'd love to reply to each point in detail, but I'm afraid that will have to wait.

Personally I don't feel a "step by step room based navigation system" adds any level of immersiveness or depth to the gameplay, that could not also be achieved in other less frustrating ways.

I guess the fundamental reason why room based navigation is unsatisfying is that I already know how to "win" any system based on that. At any point in game sequence, make sure I navigate to as many locations as possible. Since there's no real-time action component all I'm investing to accomplish this strategy is time. There's no new game, nothing for me to discover or be satisfied by except completion of a rote and tedious task. I guess in my mind there's a sort of algebra to exploration in video games. You have to assume most players will go and try every nook and cranny, so its not really an effective puzzle, its sunk cost. In that case why bother forcing people through the exercise?

To put it another way, if going to a restaurant and meeting Charlotte is intended to be an "optional" part of the game, then the basic premise is that there should be some "cost" for the player associated with taking that option. Otherwise it should be part of the main plot. If a pure exploration system is what makes Charlotte's segment optional, then that "cost" is the player's time in navigating the town and discovering her. Contrast with Metroid or other action/platformer games where the cost is not just in exploration time, but also skill, observation and occasionally a little inductive reasoning.

An alternative system I would propose are ones where the cost is not real world time (that could be spent making VNs), but simulated game time. I.e. "Where will I go this morning?" and show a town map. Click on the destination and play a VN sequence which shows the player taking the path to the restaurant, meeting people along the way, etc. After that, the morning is past and that chance for eating yummy Belgian waffles is gone.

Or you could make the cost something else. Say you're going to get Charlotte's friendship by bribing her with gold! Absurd example of course, but if you have only so much gold to spend in your bribes around town, then you don't need to physically navigate the town to manage that resource/opportunity. Again the choice you make has direct and visible impact on your success, so it's obviously meaningful and therefore engaging.

I could tolerate an exploration system if given some tools to make returning to places easier (such as a map to warp instantly to any place I have already visited), but at the moment I feel that such a system may have intrinsic limitations, especially in the context of VNish games/stories.

The points you make about pacing and "the non-obvious choice" (closely related I think to Chris Crawford's "third, inspired option") are very good ones, and I really want to respond to them as well (though I think they are largely independent to this topic) but that will have to wait for this evening.

[musical74]

I'd like Magical Boutique 2 to be less about stats and more about story. Stats make me go crazy now

I've always been more of a *story-driven* player. Now, stats may be important, but if there's so much focus on the stats that the story's BLAH...I'll pass on it. Maybe that's why I'm so picky on games...I love games that have a good story, That's why I like games like Garden Societ Kykuit and Ori, Ochi, Onoe...they have a good story behind them. MB doesn't have as much of a story but the story that is there is very good

Pom: Be careful...you don't want to fall on these pointy daggers!

You know....it's interesting...I think I've enjoyed the games that have come out of Lemmasoft more than a lot of the games out in stores lately

[mikey]

The eternal dilemma, I see... I'd like to take a step back though:

Anyway, there is this eternal war between reading and gameplay (note that I'm not saying story and gameplay). Somehow, when you PLAY, you don't really want to READ. And when you READ, you don't really want to PLAY. It's a known fact and it's true for most people, including me - by reading you are pasive, by playing (reflexes, exploration, combining, managing etc,..) you are active.

It's definitely possible to make a good story with more or less pure gameplay (this is the frequent topic now in game design - but indeed it focuses on STORY through GAMEPLAY, not story through reading which is the actual VN territory - and surely it's possible to make a good (often also branching) story that you mainly read).

The main challenge that I think a lot of people are trying to take on is that a pure VN seems to bland, too "texty" - and on paper it actually looks like a combination of text-based play and one or two other gameplay intermezzos could work wonders - but it doesn't. Well, IMO, at least.

A VN/gameplay hybrid tries to accomplish the same thing with two methods at once - the VN/movie/reading approach as well as the gameplay/active approach. Yes, you always CAN balance it, but the outcome will always be games that feel a bit odd, most of the people wishing that the one or the other part of it were removed (this is similar to the debate of using cut scenes in games - they can work, but only if the gameplay element is overwhelmingly dominant). Anyway, back on track - another thought is that the merging of the reading and the playing sections almost always breaks the flow - either the reading flow or the gaming flow. And it's never good.

So I'm really skeptical about hybrids - they may be better to sell, since you can show off more and the customer will probably have the impression there is some substance (and indeed I consider a gameplay-based title worth more money than a VN or a movie), but in the end, they can't really be that memorable.

I know there are a lot of holes in this theory, and exceptions like really well-made dating sims and magbou may seem to prove it - but in all these cases this is more because the actual "spirit" of the game is uniting it so strongly.

It's related to the second major point of the above discussion - the walking around a virtual environment for "no reason", or the problems with choices (obvious vs. random):

I'll put it this way - sometimes it's okay to implement a frustrating feature, sometimes it's even needed to make something hard and even illogical - sometimes people think too much about what others like and don't like that they think their game must somehow adhere to some rules or meet certain criteria, that some things are just taboo (like going to the kitchen or living room deciding on which girl you meet)... and yes, there's a lot of good reasons why to avoid certain things - but does that mean they CANNOT be used? Even that cursed pixel hunting.

I realize all this is because people now expect their games to be easier, more immersive, accessible, and all those other great-sounding names - but should that stop people from creating say a game in which exploration is there just for the atmosphere - even if it doesn't contribute to the story? It's really frustrating to read about this sometimes... why is it so hard to accept the game as it is? Why do games or VNs need to be friendly?

Because I'd rather have an unfriendly game, than one from which I feel it was designed to flatter me - or one that does eveything imaginable so that I don't get bored or frustrated with it. They say it's a sign of good game design, but (and this is really very philosophical) games should also have their pride - I see a game that just lays it out in front of you with its adaptive difficulty and instant rewards... I don't know. Sometimes it's really great to see an uncompromised work - something that looks for specific players that will like it, rather than something that seeks to be appealing generally.

[Otaku Dash]

I agree with mikey on this one... as I said before it's all up to what you want to do.. work is hard and if you try to do it just to please everyone it will drain you fast and frustration will sink in. If you start loooking at your VN and saying "mmm.. Maybe I could throw some RPG functions to it... RPG maniacs will love it" then afterwards "Hey! How about an exploration system? That will please adventure fans!"... and keep adding functions, in the end you'll end up with a "Quimera" that is going to bite you in the... neck ^^ (:P), you'll probably just look at it and say: "MMmm... this wasn't what I was aming at all...".

So bottom line I think you should stick to what you belive it turns out best... I mean, It might be the hardest to pull off, but your thoughts and ideals are "Laws" in game making... most people forget do to it for the passion for others and their work and end up holled on the selling venues and cheap excuses of gameplay (example of that is the "WOAH BEAUTIFULL GRAPHICS!!" Gamers... the game might not have anything to play off but if it has amazing graphicss it'll sell :S Makes me sick to be honest... >_>).

So the things isn't about what "we" think it's better.... it's the thought about what "You" think it's better and what "we" can do with ideas to help it out I loved the first magical boutique because of it's originality... but also because of teh spirit you put into it so that all merged toguether wonderfully... even if it didn't please some people at least the core of the idea was there.. and it was a marvellous experience by itself ^^

Long post again *wheeeze* gotta... breathe...

[Jake]

Somehow, when you PLAY, you don't really want to READ. And when you READ, you don't really want to PLAY. It's a known fact and it's true for most people, including me - by reading you are pasive, by playing (reflexes, exploration, combining, managing etc,..) you are active.

I wonder if it's not more to do with expectation and context... just thinking of other media for a minute, I remember when I first read Watchmen; it's a regular western comic-book presentation, but in between each chapter is a chunk of text. Some of them are newspaper articles, some of them are excerpts from books, all of them back up and detail the story. Now, I read a lot, and I read quite fast, and I love reading... but somehow, these little chunks of dense text in the middle of a comic felt like a real chore to get through, at first. My mind had been set into comic-reading mode, and was expecting information and page-turns at a fairly fast rate, and this text wasn't supplying it fast enough.

It's been years since I last read Watchmen, and in the intervening time I've been reading more and more manga. Now, Japanese comics are renown for 'decompression', where the pages are less dialogue-dense than western equivalents and events are played out over more chapters; I started reading a regular western graphic novel (a version of The Hobbit that my mother found and offered me the last time I was visiting) the other day and noticed exactly the same thing. My brain now expects dialogue and action at manga pace when reading comics, so this seemed simultaneously very wordy (which it really isn't, especially compared to the original) and as if events pass by in a flash.

I'm wondering whether it's a similar thing with games. Not so much the active/passive split (which certainly wouldn't work for the comics; reading unillustrated prose, western comics or manga are all equally passive) but simply that the player has got into a 'visual novel' mindset and thus the stat-fiddling that they'd be happy to do in an FF title seems annoying because it forces them out of the story-flow, or has got into a 'management game' mindset and can't be doing with all this extra reading which is getting in the way of thinking about hard numbers...



Incidentally, I've heard people say a couple of times since that the best way to read Watchmen is to only read one chapter a day. At first I wondered if this was just to prolong the experience as long as possible, but the more I think about it the more I think it's probably because it halves the amount of context-switching the reader does. In the original single-chapter-per-issue-per-month format, the dense prose would have been great because it extended the enjoyment of the single issue, and it wouldn't so much have been sandwiched between two chapters of comic as running alongside it as a separate-but-related publication. Unfortunately I can't really think of a good way to work this approach into a VN hybrid...

[monele]

I already know how to "win" any system based on that. At any point in game sequence, make sure I navigate to as many locations as possible.

I see your point about time being the only "cost"... but you're mostly talking about uh... preceding costs... something you pay to reach something. I'm mostly interested in following costs... something you have to pay for your decisions.
If you played the game I have in mind in a try-everything way, you would only see a part of the game. Why? Because by trying one of the choices, you would change the game environment and unlock future choices while locking others.

Oh and a question arises : do you like VNs?... Don't you feel it's pretty easy to see everything there is to see by simply trying all the combination of choices?

An alternative system I would propose are ones where the cost is not real world time (that could be spent making VNs), but simulated game time.

You're saying that we need some in-game "currency" (game time could be it) and it seems I agree with this. I don't really intend to let the player do *everything* freely. Either money is needed, or there are exclusive choices. For replayability, this sounds mandatory.

I could tolerate an exploration system if given some tools to make returning to places easier (such as a map to warp instantly to any place I have already visited)

It could be done but I keep thinking "what if I want an event to take place *between* two other places?"... I would have to simulate the whole trip from where you are to where you click and, if any event occurs, display it. It's doable... just more strain on the programming side .

musical74 :

MB doesn't have as much of a story but the story that is there is very good

Thanks ^^... I'm actually surprised it works as it is. But there are comments asking for more quests and events after all... and I do understand that : when playing RPGs or any game where the story has an important place, you tend to want more and more story. But you usually don't want to give up gameplay altogether either... It's weird
But in the end, what would you like? MB1 bis? Longer MB1? More story? More gameplay?

mikey :

I don't mind reading that much. I get my fair share from RPGs and VNs... but I like interactivity. I like KNs if they aren't too long (Time's Tear was perfect, Gakuen Redux I gave up). On the other hand, I like playing... but I get bored easily if the game expects me to do everything. I get bored in SimCity, Morrowind, The Sims... I can come up with a few things by myself but around those sparks of imagination, I like the game to give me something to chew on : a story. It doesn't have to be a big story... it can be a bunch of small stories... or events.
And then, once I have a game like this, my next complaint is usually that gameplay is too separated from the story. You get some intro scene, then it's regular gameplay and then the ending scene.... and you're in for the next mission/chapter whatever. That's where I'd like the story to take into account some of your gameplay and customize a few things. Things like Elven Relations battles where protecting someone is as much a strategic choice as something with consequences in the story that follows.

the merging of the reading and the playing sections almost always breaks the flow - either the reading flow or the gaming flow. And it's never good.

I don't know... I think it's a matter of taste. There should always be a balance that pleases someone. Clearly, a pure VN (kinetic) will be hated by pure gamers... while, I guess, a pure game will be hated by readers. But really, most of the time, readers and players are the same person... and while I conceive that you might prefer to clearly separate these two things, I'd really like to combine them with the balance that fits me.
As I said for my very personal tastes, UP lacked interactivity while MagBou lacked story. So I'm really looking for the right middle.

So I'm really skeptical about hybrids - they may be better to sell

Of course it's very personal but it's not the reason *I* am going for the hybrid way.

but in the end, they can't really be that memorable.

*shrugs*... I'm not sure this is an absolute truth.

Btw... just to be sure : are we comparing hybrids to kinetic novels or to VNs with choices?

sometimes people think too much about what others like and don't like that they think their game must somehow adhere to some rules or meet certain criteria, that some things are just taboo (like going to the kitchen or living room deciding on which girl you meet)...

Well... two things here :
Of course I'm trying to please at least *some* people... I just can't make a project just for myself. I see no incentive. But I still plan to make a game that *I* would enjoy playing. I have great memories of some games and I'd really like to give these feelings back to other people.
So... I personally hate the "kitchen=some random person" choices. Well... if they're the only kind of choices at least. A bit of uncertainty is ok. This just means I'll try not to have these kinds of choices in my games. In the same way, I don't like to be frustrated (too much) by games, so I don't see why I'd impose that to my players ^^;...

but should that stop people from creating say a game in which exploration is there just for the atmosphere - even if it doesn't contribute to the story?

On this particular point, I'd say no. I like games with little bits of non-mandatory content. But expect someone who doesn't like this to not put any in their games

Why do games or VNs need to be friendly?

Mostly because there's enough stress out there that we like to have our little havens? But hey, here again, it's all a matter of taste. It's not that games have to be friendly... it's just that if it's impossible, it's impossible. This reminds me of the Indigo Prophecy... it was very cinematic, mostly an adventure game, very story-based... yet, it had action scenes based on quick reflexes. Well, some people couldn't pass them. That's it... they reached 10% of the game and they *couldn't* go further. How frustrating is that? It's like a good movie suddenly stopping because you can't weight 80kg ô_o...
So, while I did enjoy the mix myself and had no problem with the action scenes... I think it's fair to let these other people enjoy the rest of the game by letting them skip the scenes or make them easier.

Sometimes it's really great to see an uncompromised work - something that looks for specific players that will like it, rather than something that seeks to be appealing generally.

And it does exist. Look at car racing games... are they trying to entice ping pong players? I think not. Now some car racing games are arcade-ish... others are simulations... some are easy, some are hard. It's just about how much customization you want to allow... Maybe letting people have it easier by making the opponents a bit dumber is okay... but maybe letting people change Need for Speed into a place simulation is too much.


But to come back to my projects in general... I'm not trying to please as many people as possible. I'm trying to create *the* game I've been wanting to play for a while. There are many games I play where I have only a few complaints... but I've never seen any game combining these base games and fixing these particular things... so...


Lately, though, I'm getting really depressed about this. I have a hard time defining exactly what I want... and when I do, I just can't come up with a solution for it.
I could make a kinetic novel... but I suck at making full stories.
I could make a simple VN... but I'll get bored by the lack of interactivity.
I could make a pure game... but I'll get bored by the lack of story.
I could make a hybrid... but I keep missing the right combination.

Basically, I want everything and nothing at the same time ô_@... bweh.

[DaFool]

Whew! What a discussion.

I can't comment on everything (I've been skimming like crazy), but just need to say the following:

* my motivation for hybrid games is simple... I cannot churn out lots of text, and I would like a game to last long enough to be immersive, so gameplay makes up for that. I also have an affinity to JRPGs and would like to integrate the best elements (simplified, though) whenever possible. If I feel my story is really strong though, I'd go the kinetic novel route.

I think the issue here is that the concept of MagBou2 does not stand strong unlike the concept for MagBou1, which was very innovative to begin with. MagBou2, as it currently stands, does not feel innovative... that would be fine if the actual system is engaging, but the current framework feels a bit less than engaging, sorry. I think a walkable world map / room system would work better... sure, we've seen them before, but it would capture the cuteness -- the essense of MagBou, better. I think the facial portraits contributed to that cuteness in MagBou1... perhaps you might want to put facial portraits for every action.

But I really don't know, just that it's crucial you hammer the system down before proceeding with production. A similar thing happened with my Gothloli Fashion Academy and rocket's Starlight. I read that Starlight would feature a relationship management system that isn't necessarily romantic, and figured it might be better than the system I had in mind for GFA. I had also wanted to expand on the Nettestadt exploration system, but recently realized that it's not absolutely necessary to do. Not to mention rocket's more moe characters compared with my adult character designs. Coupled with the fact that I have far less time nowadays to do everything for my own projects so I would need the most efficient means to get my story out while at the same time contribute to making another existing project more extensive, well, the decision was simple.

Similarly, perhaps you might be able to wait things out and a better system might come along. In my case, I realize that moments of inspiration come fast and hard, and is a factor in being able to crank out a game in two months. Now I'm like shuffling my feet working on things here and there... the insane drive has long gone and I am waiting for the next tide to come by.

Edit: The analogy you placed reminded me that I'm not quite good enough in storytelling, programming, music composition, and graphic art if each were taken separately. But combining them seems to be my forte. Perhaps you could create sections of your game and try a bit of each? Kinda like Missing Tickets in its various styles, but less experimental.