Ohh, response ^^... Let's tackle this
try every combination of verbs and nouns and examine every seemingly irrelevant adjective of every item. I find these things tedious.
I do hate this and pixel hunting too
"wander around to every location looking for something relevant to do." This one seems to plauge both genres quite equally.
Mmmm, true... I guess it's a bit weird that you'd just walk around, goal-less... and that you'd go to places "because you can". But I conceive how it's not easy to give the player good reasons to do whatever he does at all times... Some games like the Monkey Island series don't suffer so much from it because they're based on a silly humor.
My personal guess right now is that game makes are tempted to create an "interactive place model" because they want to enhance the simulation and immersiveness of the game and story. However, I think the genius of VNs, and what makes them successful, is their relentless economy of stripping away needless simulation.
At this point, I feel I have to at least give my reasons ^^.
I have two very different projects in my bag : Utsukushii Planet and Magical Boutique. The first one is as classic as VN get... story story story choice story story story. While MagBou is the opposite : choice choice choice story choice choice choice. Result? I find UP boring after a while because all I do is read. I can only take so much Fate/Stay Night before I feel like moving around and *do* something, physically. And when it comes to MagBou, while I really enjoyed creating the whole game system, I now feel very reluctant to touch it. It's not very complex but enough to make me dread having to modify it... and I don't even feel like playing it because I tend to think "argh, I'll have to spent 30 turns doing repetitive clicks just to see that one particular scene".
Goal number 1 : make a more balanced mix so that I don't get bored, and don't feel like the game system is feeding me story bits once a year.
Goal number 2 : immersion. Yes, it's true, I tend to think the player will have a better understanding of the world if he has to "live" in it. Just learning the layout of places would help. Maybe I'm a bit sick of being dragged along in some VNs (it really depends on the VN I guess...)
Goal number 3 : ease the pain of writing. While I can write stuff, I have a hard time writing everything from point A to point B. I dread character introductions and prefer to show well acquainted characters for example. And when it comes to VNs, I guess I don't like having to describe absolutely everything, even some trivial transitions. Maybe it's my habit of wanting to justify everything that forces me to think of a reason *why* the character would go see A first instead of B... instead of just skipping to the scene directly ^^;...
In any case, I like the idea of turning that part into a game system because it suddenly doesn't really demand any explanation. The character went to see A... because the player chose to do so.
Goal number 4 : unapparent choices, freedom, more game in the VN. It's all mixed, really ^^;... Here's the thing : I wouldn't be able to play an adventure game nowadays (point & click, text adventure, Myst puzzles...) because I'd get frustrated too easily and be afraid of losing my time (some P&C puzzles were *really* hard just because you couldn't think of what the author thought of). I really like VN in that aspect : it's *very* easy to play and not frustrating since the game/story goes on at all times.
What I don't like, though, is how choices tend to be so... obvious... or the total opposite (mikey, I'm looking at you ;p). I don't mind it so much when I think "I'm just exploring possible paths of a story" but I've come to wish for something more... something that would require a *little* thinking and planning to get the ending you want.
It's hard to describe and I really don't know yet if it's even possible to keep a VNish experience while making it harder... yet not too hard @_@...
The idea of my system in that regard is that it allows to give more choices without it being overwhelming. It doesn't require you to click or hover around : it shows possibilities right away. It doesn't require you to use verbs and objects together : it shows logical actions in a contextual way. It doesn't require you to find the hidden exit : it shows all the reachable locations from where you are.
The biggest problem is to find a balance between this simplification and keeping some challenge that won't make all the actions obvious to the player.
It's really what's making me go crazy >.>... I want a challenge... but I don't want a frustrating challenge. I'm thinking "let the player make mistakes and deal with the consequences"... but I know I hate games that let you do something stupid that blocks you later. I'm thinking "let's put possibilities accessible by going off the usual path"... but I know I hate games that are so cryptic that you can only discover the interesting bits by using a FAQ.
To go back to my pet peeves : games with obvious choices could achieve the same result by asking you from the beginning "who do you want to end with?" and then serve you a kinetic novel. Really, if to get Maria's ending, all you have to do is "be nice with Maria", "save Maria", "kiss Maria"... there's not much "game" in there. (I know, I know, these VNs are probably not intended to be games ^^).
As for the cryptic ones, I feel I'd get the same result by letting the game choose for myself since I usually have *no* idea what will happen next. *throws a dice*.
In the end, I hesitate between two things : either have an adventure system which is somewhat challenging (probably hard to balance) or have very straightforward VN choices... but in a way that gives varied consequences that *make sense*... yet are not too obvious... and still let you do something about them.
Can I give an example for the latter? *ponders*... Eeeeh... I guess not :/...
But even in that case I'd rather choose "goto town" vs "goto the country" rather than "go north, go west, open gate, go west."
Do note that I don't use cardinal points
, except in the MB2 town center... something I could actually simplify into "go to the restaurant, go to the florist". If I could, I'd actually put a list of all possible rooms at all times... but it would get tedious to find what you're looking for... So there is at least a need for "groups" of locations being accessible from specific points.
I hope I have answered at least a few questions, even unasked ones
. My biggest question for you would be : do you think there's a way that this adventure system would end up pleasing you, through modifications, or is it just that you can't like a VN with this system?
Now onto Mr. E's post ^^
if the only way to advance the story would be to go into the restaurant and order a meal, then why even bother having all those options?
My thoughts, exactly... and I'd like to avoid that.
If in these visits the player really bothers Charlotte, rings the bell every goddamn time, forgets to compliment her, etc... After some time she might ban the player from entering the restaurant! If however he is gentlemanly, patient and contributes with a fair amount to the restaurant, she may give him discounts, new recipies or even start liking him. But if the player ignores the restaurant, then that's ok...
This is closer to my plan, yes ^^. I think that by giving more options and make things optionals (contrary to a VN choice which you *have* to make), you dilute the obvious among the flavor... and you could take into account various things such as the number of times you went there... how nice you were (complimenting, helping). In a regular VN, it'd be "Your cooking is delicious!" "Isn't there too much salt?" "Toilets, toilets!!"... Oh now it's so hard to guess which one makes Charlotte like you >.>...
Ok, ok... I agree it's just as easy to be nice to Charlotte in this adventure system as it is ^^;... Argh...
Ok... how do you make a game which is challenging and makes sense... yet is accessible for everyone and not too obvious? o_O... Is it even possible? ^^;...
After I Finish my current project, I may be intrested in doing something with your "frame".
Feel free to ask for the latest version if/when you reach that part
EDIT : Ahem... forgot a little something :3...
If this adventure thingie really doesn't work out, there is another "system" I'd like to try : an exploration system. Basically, there would be no difficulty at all as in "no puzzles" and you would be able to roam around a set world and get to explore it. Think "Morrowind", BUT... there would be an emphasis on people. In the MB2 world, an example would be how you would choose wether to visit Charlotte at the restaurant or the Hana Sisters or Minya... And there wouldn't be anything really blocking you... so the game would just flow and progress depending on what you focus on.
It's really an unformed idea in my mind and I don't know if it would work... or even if it doesn't exist already ô_o... but I *think* there's something good in there.