Rating System

[papillon]

... the original version of summer schoolgirls was designed to contain a variable switch that if set in the ini file would turn all of the 'nightgown' scenes semi-transparent, because I'm just LIKE that. however, iirc, there was a bug somewhere and it didn't actually work, and when I did the graphics replacement later I didn't include any more of such pictures.

[musical74]

wow, hot topic....

Cobra Mission had a *WARNING* page but I doubt anyone ever clicked on the *oh, my I'm underage so I should exit the game* piece...

[monele]

Reading this topic does *not* make me want to create any kind of "questionable" content.... So... complicated o_o...

Seriously, is this all even necessary?...

[Jake]

Seriously, is this all even necessary?...

Depending on where the servers are and what the laws there are, quite possibly. Many countries make it very illegal to provide porn to minors, and people in general have an amazing ability to totally abdicate any responsibility and pass it on to someone else.

So yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the RAA could potentially get in legal trouble if they host 18+ games which don't take every effort to point this out to the user.

[chronoluminaire]

... the original version of summer schoolgirls was designed to contain a variable switch that if set in the ini file would turn all of the 'nightgown' scenes semi-transparent, because I'm just LIKE that. however, iirc, there was a bug somewhere and it didn't actually work, and when I did the graphics replacement later I didn't include any more of such pictures.

Heh... now that I'd have liked to see

[DaFool]

So yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the RAA could potentially get in legal trouble if they host 18+ games which don't take every effort to point this out to the user.

Better start writing the disclaimer for the 18+ section of the RAA soon.

And seriously, there are far more freely-available sleazy stuff out there which the uploaders don't take any responsibility for which should be the first to be prosecuted, not the supreme work of art I'm about to create...

I am not backing down from free expression...

[DaFool]

Okay, the Seven Seas, Livejournal incidents got me worried that there are actually lots of vigilante morality groups, as well as general puritanical attitudes among some fans out there who do have the power to make things not happen.

Now the question, and this should be taken independent of the title I'm working on, because it can affect this community and others' perception of this community. All it takes is one title to be set up on a podium or be made into a scapegoat. And all it takes is one title to break the trend (i.e. extremely long development times, resurrected projects, hybrids, etc.) and others will follow. So you can bet once that first eroge is released, many more will follow. Note I am not talking about sex games. I am talking about 18+ story-centric titles which are in development which happen to be too racy.

1.) Are we really ready for an eroge in this community?
2.) Are affiliates (renai.us, visualnews, and their respective hosting companies) ready?
3.) Do you think the fact that we've been ero-free so far is an achievement and we should preserve this tradition? (In a way, the games here are an argument that VN != hentai, whereas if there were to appear eroge, then that weakens the argument)

This is really really important discussion for me, because if I feel that pushing through with my full artistic vision will potentially damage the audience and the community and resources we have built up thus far, then I will have to sacrifice a bit.

[PyTom]

2.) Are affiliates (renai.us, visualnews, and their respective hosting companies) ready?

My (renai.us's) hosting allows adult material, so long as it's not illegal in the US. I would like to change the renai.us software to better handle adult material, (say, by putting up a disclaimer), but I don't need to do that until a game exists.

[DaFool]

Re: Visualnews, I'm waiting on Misu to give me feedback, since he was gracious enough to expand my account. VN will be where everyone will be downloading before being mirrored.

(Well, there's still 2 months to go to settle this...)

[monele]

because if I feel that pushing through with my full artistic vision will potentially damage the audience and the community and resources we have built up thus far

I chatted with a colleague about how producers and money in general made such awful things as shuffling series episodes order, censoring stuff when exporting them, changing dialogues, ruining opening themes, etc...
What it all boils down to is that creators are genuinely trying to make something and external factors with no consideration for art have them do things differently.

I don't think art is about pleasing as many people as possible. So... please, make your game the way you *feel* is right. You've changed quite a lot since this project began and I hope you changed it only because it seemed to lead things towards a better result, not towards a wider acceptation ^^.

I do get somewhat scared of a oh-so-easy linking back to H-games, but if this happens with something like Nettstadt, I really don't think there's anything we can do to save those people.

[Scout]

I do get somewhat scared of a oh-so-easy linking back to H-games, but if this happens with something like Nettstadt, I really don't think there's anything we can do to save those people.

Yeah, I think that's a really important point... there's really only so much you can do. It would really be a shame for someone to abandon their artistic vision just because they were worried about how people outside their target audience would perceive their media.

And really, if someone finds one adult game on a site with 69 non-adult games, and they assume they're all porn... not only is that way out of our control, but is it even worth the effort? I doubt those are the people anybody would want to appeal to, regardless.

[mikey]

3.) Do you think the fact that we've been ero-free so far is an achievement and we should preserve this tradition?

But - aren't the games we make defining where we are going as well? And where else should you find more understanding than here? I mean, the people here are very open, non-discriminating and not narrow-minded - you don't really need to have concerns for them, because maybe more than anywhere else, your vision, no matter how strange it is, will have a chance - to be presented, and to be understood.

This is really really important discussion for me, because if I feel that pushing through with my full artistic vision will potentially damage the audience and the community and resources we have built up thus far, then I will have to sacrifice a bit.

I second what monele said. The only thing you would do is "betray" yourself. I think we all acknowledge that a Great VN would be nice, and discuss this endlessly - but that doesn't mean that people should hold back or try to please others or protect a community as their main goal. You must never-ever make compromises in heart. This freedom to do what you like is the only thing you really have. You even pay for it with low production values, and almost no popularity, so why would you throw it away?

[absinthe]

And all it takes is one title to break the trend (i.e. extremely long development times, resurrected projects, hybrids, etc.) and others will follow. So you can bet once that first eroge is released, many more will follow. Note I am not talking about sex games. I am talking about 18+ story-centric titles which are in development which happen to be too racy.

I'm sure there are a number of us plugging away on erotic games or non-erotic games that contain sex scenes. Someone has to finish their erotic WIP first, yes, but that doesn't mean that game is a herald of inquity, unleashing the floodgates of teh evil upon us. Just that that particular developer had more drive and free time than everyone else.

3.) Do you think the fact that we've been ero-free so far is an achievement and we should preserve this tradition? (In a way, the games here are an argument that VN != hentai, whereas if there were to appear eroge, then that weakens the argument)

Absolutely not. "Ero-free"? Just because nobody's happened to complete a game containing a particular element doesn't mean we're deliberately free of it, just that nobody's finished a game containing that element yet. Completing games is *hard*, and you have to write the stories your subconscious gives you.

There are already tons of VN games out there that contain sex -- all the hentai games. One more -- or a million more -- appearing in our community won't change that in any way. And the non-hentai games already in the archives already prove that VNs are not always hentai. It's a done deal.

This is really really important discussion for me, because if I feel that pushing through with my full artistic vision will potentially damage the audience and the community and resources we have built up thus far, then I will have to sacrifice a bit.

Dude, I respect your feelings, but c'mon, it's not really that important. We're not talking world peace or the Suffrage movement ("Free Erotic Games Now!"). We're discussing adding racy elements to our fiction. AIF writers have been doing it for years.

If you feel the erotic angle adds to your work, include it, and more power to you.

I don't think art is about pleasing as many people as possible. So... please, make your game the way you *feel* is right. You've changed quite a lot since this project began and I hope you changed it only because it seemed to lead things towards a better result, not towards a wider acceptation ^^.

Amen. And amen again.

A content rating system is a nice compromise between allowing responsible adults to entertain themselves and protecting small children from seeing things they shouldn't. That's all. It's not a moralistic judgment on the works being rated. It's not a punishment or a straitjacket. It's just a way for us, the developers, to give players the chance to make informed decisions.

[DaFool]

Overwhelming encouragement, thanks!

And yay! Visualnews can host ero content(even hardcore) as long as it's a visual novel!

OMG, the heavens have opened.

-------------

Oh, and btw, something I notice, sexual practices are pretty much universal among different cultures since antiquity (I wonder why )

I mean, it seems to me while the concept of 'beauty' is so different, the concept of sex is pretty much 'Ah, these are the acts that make up 'sex', however depending on the time and place, acts A, B, E, G, and Z are taboo. But that may change in 20 years.

So I'm not exactly reinventing the wheel...

[PyTom]

1.) Are we really ready for an eroge in this community?
2.) Are affiliates (renai.us, visualnews, and their respective hosting companies) ready?
3.) Do you think the fact that we've been ero-free so far is an achievement and we should preserve this tradition? (In a way, the games here are an argument that VN != hentai, whereas if there were to appear eroge, then that weakens the argument)

You know, the more I think about this, the more I somewhat question the underlying premise. I mean, we have a community here, but the community isn't what makes games. Individuals, or small teams of people, are what makes games, not the community.

The community contributes alot. We discuss the design of games, we allow teams to get together, we find resources, we provide tools and support, we help host games, and so on.

But at the end of the day, the community as a whole shouldn't get involved in trying to make decisions about the content of games. That's the perogative of the game makers, and nobody else.

(In fact, I think that it's something of a problem that we're percieved externally as a community making games, insofar as people generalize from one OEL game to another, when often that doesn't make sense. I think it's important that our games have their own independent existences, so people consider our products to be somewhat standalone.)