So, we're here... what do we do now?

[Kato]

I would be interested to hear what you think the community should be doing for new members?

This. I'm glad someone asked this. Everything everyone had said has hit the nail on the head but what, as a new member, would you suggest needs to be changed? Or added? I feel this topic should be more focused on addressing these issues rather than defending them.

[Taleweaver]

Trooper, "going strong" you say? Yes, 10 years certainly is a while, but let me give you a little perspective,
1.Over 12,000(~50%) people of all registered members have never made a single post.
2. Just over 500(2.5%) people have more than 100 posts each.
3. Only 40(0.2%) people have more than a 1000 posts.
4. Only 1 person has more than 5000 posts.

That took 10 years. And I'm not even taking into account all the people who came to the forum and decided it doesn't have what they need, people that could have become valuable members of the community.

1. We discourage spam posting.
2. We discourage political discussions.
3. In general, we're not 4chan.

We don't believe in post count, we believe in results. In the course of the last ten years, this community has produced literally hundreds of games, and lots and lots of producers have found their teams here.

I think we may be doing something right

My specific problem is that as far as the forum is concerned I have no practical experience that pertains to the games that get developed here, and there is nobody to give me a direction, because I don't know anybody around, or what people need.

So you can't draw, you can't compose, you can't voice-act, and you can't code. Well, apparently, you can write, though, and that's where I started, too.

Teach yourself Ren'Py, or ask someone to show you the first steps. (Heck, ask me!) Begin writing your own script, and as you do, contact a few people offering their drawing skills for free projects. Start with something small, something about 10k words or less, find some music on incompetech.com, release it - whoa, you're a game-maker

And the other problem. I could try to get into a project, but the most likely outcomes are, either I get rejected for not having the required skills, or someone will take me in hoping I can meet their unrealistic demands and things will fall apart without any experience for me.

Find someone on your own skill level. Easily done - we have a lot of newbies.

[Rinima]

I would be interested to hear what you think the community should be doing for new members?

This. I'm glad someone asked this. Everything everyone had said has hit the nail on the head but what, as a new member, would you suggest needs to be changed? Or added? I feel this topic should be more focused on addressing these issues rather than defending them.

I 2nd this question.
I've been here a while, but it took me a good while to get into the forums properly, and even now, I sometimes feel like a outsider (more often than not really but that's not the point). I think one of the problems with getting new members, and retaining them is, that this forum very much feels like a elitist forum (don't ask me how, that is just the feeling I get sometimes), and I think it's probably that, which scares new members away. Because it's certainly not the content (there is way to much of that for it to the issue here).

In my humble opinion, I personally think that there maybe should be a thread or something like that, just for the newbies. And I'm not talking a introduction thread. Just a general thread where we can chat and talk without fear of having the thread locks/being told off ect, might encourage the newer members to stick around

And please don't take offence by this post, I'm not looking for backlash ect.

[MaiMai]

I 2nd this question.
I've been here a while, but it took me a good while to get into the forums properly, and even now, I sometimes feel like a outsider (more often than not really but that's not the point). I think one of the problems with getting new members, and retaining them is, that this forum very much feels like a elitist forum (don't ask me how, that is just the feeling I get sometimes), and I think it's probably that, which scares new members away. Because it's certainly not the content (there is way to much of that for it to the issue here).

I think this is an interesting point to bring up, particularly because there are probably elitist tendencies (I know I'm rather guilty of it since I've developed a very blunt and straight forward approach over the years), but it's hard to pinpoint what those are and whether they count as elitist. As Taleweaver pointed out:

1. We discourage spam posting.
2. We discourage political discussions.
3. In general, we're not 4chan..

We have our casual discussion and even personal threads (Like Shout Out For Joy and the Get Things Off Your Chest thread), but by and large the mods have made changes and rules to make sure that the discussion and activity of LSF is on point; there's also been a big emphasis on organization and making sure threads are in the right place or have the right amount of content depending on what section it is. So maybe that elitist feeling comes from the slightly stricter rules and the fact that we prefer mostly mature discussion with coherent posts instead of "lol butts and omg what a hottie" sort of fan talk? I'd love to see someone else elaborate on this train of thought.

[Rinima]

We have our casual discussion and even personal threads (Like Shout Out For Joy and the Get Things Off Your Chest thread), but by and large the mods have made changes and rules to make sure that the discussion and activity of LSF is on point. So maybe that elitist feeling comes from the slightly stricter rules and the fact that we prefer mostly mature discussion with coherent posts instead of "lol butts and omg what a hottie" sort of fan talk? I'd love to see someone else elaborate on this train of thought.

Oh I get that completely (if that kind of talk was around, I would high-tail out of here as soon as I walked in). I can understand the strict rules and why they are there, I actually kinda admire the admins for being so diligent with them, but I don't think their laid out in the best way possible. For someone who is new to the forum, the language used in the rules thread is somewhat alien and could be difficult to follow, and if you do accidentally ignore the rules, you usually get a 'telling off' which can come off as cold. Which probably isn't the best to handle newbies if you know what I mean? I think what I'm getting at here is, keep the rules, enforce them when needed, but enforce them in a way that lets them know that they aren't in as much trouble as they think, and that they know it was a simple misunderstanding (unless they have done it before, in which case, being a little firmer with them is fair). I remember when I first accidentally ignored one of the rules, I PMed the admin who had told me off and kinda 'begged' them not to think to badly of me (it wouldn't surprise me if said admin isn't to fond of me now I think about it, but ah well).

Sorry, kinda rambled then XD

[Auro-Cyanide]

that this forum very much feels like a elitist forum

I think this mostly comes about naturally from having a forum about /doing/ something, and as such I don't think it's directly what we should be trying to cure. I think a good example is DeviantArt vs ConceptArt. The DeviantArt forums are great for socialising, but their usefulness is limited for anyone beyond beginner beginner. They are cacophonous and the art parts, the parts about process and improvement, are relatively small. ConceptArt on the other hand is extremely intimidating but it is one of THE places to go if you actually want to /do/ something about your art. They are far more focused and so attract more experienced artists who then help those that have the guts to post their art. LSF isn't that bad, but I think it does lean more toward CA rather than DA. The payoff for seeming a bit more intimidating is the conversations are more in depth and fruitful and they tend to attract people who can actually give some of their experience to the matter. That experience has a lot of value.

Fundamentally, rather than adding space for newcomers or even changing the way the forum works, we need to make it so people are less scared to interact in what is already here. I don't know, maybe the mods need to use more smilies for first time rule breakers XD Maybe there is a way we can let them know it's okay to approach others for help and advice. That would be my main concern, that people aren't access the experience here because of fear.

I still think a great part of the onus sits with the newcomer to get in there, we want to attract and keep people who are pro-active and self-motivated since you need that to make games and people who don't have that are unlikely to stick around anyway, but there may be some small things we can do to put a welcome mat at the already open door.

[Hazel-Bun]

I agree we could do more to be a more welcoming community! I've been on lemmasoft for a bit and I (think?) I've become pretty recognizable, but I do feel that there's a lot of pressure and "looking down" on others at times. I don't know, I'm not that active in discussions as they tend to lead nowhere, or people have a lot of hurt feelings and animosity brews up. I'm not sure if any ideas will come out of this one but, eh, it's worth a shot?

I stay at lemmasoft to post ideas and comment on others, among other things... I do feel a social scene is severally lacking here. The anime/manga section, basically anything non-Ren'Py related is pretty dead. There's no forum games allowed though I understand that. Also, posting ideas can be really discourgaing as you get either zero feedback, or, if you do get any, it's usually from people you've already made friends with ;v; Don't know if my ramblings helping ahah D;

A good chunk of the community is welcoming and friendly though. Twitter has supplemented most of the "social interaction" for me. I don't know of anything that could cater more to newbies... but, those are my two cents on the feelings of isolation and such lemmasoft can bring at times.

[SundownKid]

Trooper, "going strong" you say? Yes, 10 years certainly is a while, but let me give you a little perspective,
1.Over 12,000(~50%) people of all registered members have never made a single post.
2. Just over 500(2.5%) people have more than 100 posts each.
3. Only 40(0.2%) people have more than a 1000 posts.
4. Only 1 person has more than 5000 posts.
That took 10 years. And I'm not even taking into account all the people who came to the forum and decided it doesn't have what they need, people that could have become valuable members of the community.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't wanna bash on anybody, I'm sure you are doing fine to last this long, it certainly appears to be an active and supportive place.
I'm just sayin', with a "little effort" this place could get a lot bigger. Ya'nno before all the old members start retiring and there is nobody left to pick up the slack.
I suppose that's all I have to say, no need to repeat myself any longer.

Taleweaver, I will narrow things down a bit.
My specific problem is that as far as the forum is concerned I have no practical experience that pertains to the games that get developed here, and there is nobody to give me a direction, because I don't know anybody around, or what people need.
And the other problem. I could try to get into a project, but the most likely outcomes are, either I get rejected for not having the required skills, or someone will take me in hoping I can meet their unrealistic demands and things will fall apart without any experience for me.
And I've heard it before, I know this is a bleak outlook on things, but this is what I've come to expect from the world.

For your first statement, the thing is that most of those non posting regular members are just spambots that weren't deleted. It may be possible that even many of the ones with 1 post are also spambots. So it's not like that many people joined and then didn't decide to post.

There still may be a high amount of dropouts but that is probably just because this is primarily a game development forum for Ren'py and making games is hard.

Practical experience... well most game developers teach themselves, to be honest. I personally picked up Ren'py, and looked at sample games in order to start making my game, and asked questions on the forum when I had issues. There are probably some tutorial posts on the forums not to mention the Cookbook and Tutorial game.

As for skills, if you do have the skills, like writing, graphic design, coding, etc, people will definitely hire you. So, if you want to get on a project then start learning a skill.

[Saltome]

Well, I guess with such an overwhelming response I have to admit there is a sturdy base of supportive members. Thank you all for your time.
Now for whoever is interested, I'm going to explain what I think should be done about new members. I think that a new admin group should be created, specifically for the task of contacting new members. Getting to know them, why they are here, what they are most talented at, and so on. Then helping them select a project or at least a group of people where they will excel the most.
Why? There are a couple points of interest. First, why getting in touch with them? - Well, people are more inclined to stay if they form a bond with someone on the forum, and by approaching them we increase the chance of that happening. Why an admin group?- Authority. It can be viewed as a threat to be approached by a random stranger in an unfamiliar environment, less so if that person is a member of the ruling body. Further more the admins will have an easier time controlling such a group, over vigilante welcoming committee. Of course, the admins are probably busy enough as it is, so they would have to accept new members in their ranks.
Anyway, you may have other questions, but I will discuss them as they come in.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Well, I guess with such an overwhelming response I have to admit there is a sturdy base of supportive members. Thank you all for your time.
Now for whoever is interested, I'm going to explain what I think should be done about new members. I think that a new admin group should be created, specifically for the task of contacting new members. Getting to know them, why they are here, what they are most talented at, and so on. Then helping them select a project or at least a group of people where they will excel the most.
Why? There are a couple points of interest. First, why getting in touch with them? - Well, people are more inclined to stay if they form a bond with someone on the forum, and by approaching them we increase the chance of that happening. Why an admin group?- Authority. It can be viewed as a threat to be approached by a random stranger in an unfamiliar environment, less so if that person is a member of the ruling body. Further more the admins will have an easier time controlling such a group, over vigilante welcoming committee. Of course, the admins are probably busy enough as it is, so they would have to accept new members in their ranks.
Anyway, you may have other questions, but I will discuss them as they come in.

You are requesting a lot of people power there and people volunteering their time. It seems logistically difficult if nothing else.

I'm also going to point out, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but the people who can't get involved, ask questions, seek help, be friendly, chat etc on their own accord are probably not the people who will be able to function well in making games that take a ridiculous amount of will and self-discipline. To spend so much human resources on these people instead of the people who are trying to help themselves could be seen as counter productive.

I counter propose that we instead encourage newcomers to seek out people to talk to whether they are the creator of their favourite game, someone who seems knowledgeable about a skill they are interested in, or even a person who seems pretty friendly and flicking them a PM asking for advice on whatever it is they are looking for. I have never ignored a person who has asked me a well intentioned question. Not only does this help them be proactive about themselves in the forum, it's a personal way to introduce you to someone who is probably more experienced. I've have time for people who ask me things on their own! They are great!

I can understand that PMing someone with a question would be nerve wracking for some people, it's still a good thing for them to do if they are interested in actually making games. Alternatively they could approach actual threads already in existence that are relevant, which is less stressful than creating your own before you know how everything works. There is a search function for people to look for topics. It's likely that any questions a newcomer has asked would have been brought up before and so there would be information to help them.

My main point is that people need to help others help them. Most people here are developers already working on games and so don't have time for people who aren't interested in at least that much. My next question would be why you think that people shouldn't interact in the forum as it is? Do you see something acting as a blocker for them to post something in a topic?

[Nathan]

Why not add a Mentor system instead? People could volunteer to help newcomers instead of being admins since those are really busy.

[Deji]

Hmmm... a couple of random ideas here that could help the welcoming of new members, but that would require time/effort of members that may not have the time to do this.

- Sticky post for newbies
Written in a friendly and cheerful tone, it'll have the basic forum rules (with a link to the proper rules), basic explaining which subform is for what, links to starting-up tutorials and the list of mods/admins in case they have any problems.

- Newbie subforum
A place for newcomers to post their newbie questions they may feel are too dumb or are too scared to ask on the regular subforums.
Replies should be answered assuming people don't know what they're doing and have no previous experience in game-making, programming, writing, drawing, etc. replies with links to other threads in the forum/outside links/tutorials are encouraged.

- Welcome Wagon
A group of volunteers that are the "go to" people to PM with newbie questions and/or people that reply to stuff on the newbie forums. Patient cheerful people (unlike some of us old cinic busy people, hahaha).

Now for the rambling... (I ramble a lot, I'm sorry >>; )

Mentoring and "personal counselling" are something I can't see happening in LSF. You see, most people here that know what they're doing are pretty busy people that barely come to the forums anymore, because they're busy making games and/or with their daily lives.
If you have time to be posting around in the forums, you have time to be creating stuff (I admit it was easier to reply to things when it was less of us ^^; )
Most of us came here knowing next to nothing and just used the search function of the forums, looked at tutorials and whatnot and learned from there, and we eventually got the courage to ask stuff and comment on posts and maybe get to know other creators by their posts/threads.
That's how it was for us and that's what we think everybody should do. We like proactive people! because proactive people are that ones that get games done, and that's what this forum is about
So, for us, having a "welcoming party" akin to a... uh... school counsellor that gets to know you and helps you decide which club (group) to join is kind of pointless. You should be the one getting out there! And if you have no talents, go learn some!

As for socialising, I think it's hard in a forum with as many people as we have now. In my experience, besides talking in the non-gaming threads, Twitter (and the IRC channel?) are good if you want to socialise with other devs outside the forums.
Like in any other life situation, you'll find it's easier to socialise/click with devs that have a similar level of experience than you, similar interests and/or similar goals. Older devs tend to hang out with other older dev (old in age or old as in 'we've been hanging out here for a while'), artists tend to hang out with other artists and so on.
Best way to find out who you'd click with is to just read what they write, either in the forums or on twitter/other social media. That's how we've done it so far, at least.

And... I'll stop rambling because I just lost my train of thought >>;

Bottomline: be proactive, get out there,browse the forums, use the search function and start making stuff even if you have no team whatsoever!

[sasquatchii]

Why not add a Mentor system instead? People could volunteer to help newcomers instead of being admins since those are really busy.

I LOVE THIS IDEA! I think this would be a great way of fostering growth & friendly relationships within this community. Although right now the concept is very broad, and as is what we've got on the forums at the moment could be seen as a loosely structured sort of mentor system (where people reach out asking for help & others are welcome to step in)

Maybe we could add a board purely for tutorials, guides, how-to's, & people sharing what they've learned? We could even organize it into subforums— like art, coding, music creation, things on visual novel planning & making games in general. We've got a handful of really great tutorials already, which some have even been kind enough to archive in threads. However, these threads are hard to find if you're a newbie (such as this GUI Guide in the Art forum).

Also, while I agree with Auro-Cyanide that having volunteers spend time PMing ever new member would be cumbersome, Saltome has a point. I'm sure most of us have, at one point, joined a website/forum/group/club that took the time to message us later to make us feel welcome. It's nice when someone takes the time to reach out like that.

Maybe we could add an automated welcome message that would appear in members' inboxes once they signed up? Of course, it should be well written and useful (maybe taking the time to let them know where useful guides or topics can be found, or which admins they could reach out to if they ever have questions, or brief them on forum rules/ettiquite). If it does not feel friendly or useful, it could also be seen as spammy and be annoying, and newbies might just delete it. I'm not sure how hard that would be to do with this type of forum, though.

ALSO, we did a developer's chat a few weeks and it was a lot of fun. A bunch of people hopped onto Google Chat & joined up with their webcams & mics. It was very cool to put faces to names and everyone was so nice! Plus, it was awesome actually getting the chance to talk to people about vns, since none of my friends are into them. I'd be happy to host one if anyone's interested! (Although I'd probably want to get permission from PyTom/Taleweaver first).

[Saltome]

Yeah, this would require a certain dedication from a number of people, however that should not be too big of a problem for people who are naturally friendly and inclined to establish connections with others.
I agree that it's best to focus the resources in the most productive points, however motivation is not the only factor in establishing who is a productive member. It's beneficial to consider people's natural talents, because with a little effort these people can develop into invaluable members of the community. The thing is you need to learn what these talents are before you can evaluate them, for this you need to make sure that people stick around.
I think it's safe to assume that a lot of the people who come here are introverted. Which means that while they are probably shy to take initiative they have already developed the ability to absorb knowledge, if not the skills necessary to be good at one aspect of game development or another. They just need a little nudge in the right direction, and someone who can help them piece their individual skills together.

A mentor system is a nice idea, but I don't think many of the knowledgeable people are likely to leave their own work to teach someone specifically, it's quite the responsibility, unlike answering random questions by random people, whose answers you already know.

Bottom line is, it should probably be done, but can it be pulled off.

[Shaples]

Maybe we could add an automated welcome message that would appear in members' inboxes once they signed up? Of course, it should be well written and useful (maybe taking the time to let them know where useful guides or topics can be found, or which admins they could reach out to if they ever have questions, or brief them on forum rules/ettiquite).

I actually think this is a pretty great idea. A generic "welcome to the community!" might not be super helpful, but a quick-start guide to the forums would be brilliant. Give a friendly 5 second summary of the rules and what each of the forums are for and maybe some suggestions for where or how to jump in and get involved? Maybe: If you're a writer, go here! Artist? Go here! Want to do X? Go here!

Maybe we could add a board purely for tutorials, guides, how-to's, & people sharing what they've learned?

I like this, too, but I feel like it would have to stay pretty small or suffer the same problem of being too big to sift through easily or too overwhelming to dive into. Maybe combine with Deji's idea?

- Newbie subforum
A place for newcomers to post their newbie questions they may feel are too dumb or are too scared to ask on the regular subforums.
Replies should be answered assuming people don't know what they're doing and have no previous experience in game-making, programming, writing, drawing, etc. replies with links to other threads in the forum/outside links/tutorials are encouraged.

Have a welcome PM that links to some beginner's tutorials (getting started making a game, common mistakes/problems, etc.) that are stickied threads in a newcomer's forum? It might overlap a bit with the actual Ren'Py documentation/other resources, but would maybe make jumping in to game making feel a little less overwhelming. I will say, though, that it would be important to make this a resource and not, well, a place to segregate and abandon people who are just getting started. So much of this forum is already about learning and developing skills that I think having a separate art/writing/music/etc section for noobs would be counterproductive. Instead, make the focus on bringing people up to speed, getting them comfortable, and then pointing them out in the right direction.

Right now our Welcome section is both a little light and not suuuuper welcoming (also, I think I've heard people say that the community wiki is out of date?) - you just drop in a hello, get handed a formal rule sheet, and shoved out into the wide world. Maybe focus some of these ideas on beefing up that section rather than making a kiddie pool that experienced members might wind up inclined to avoid.