Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

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Jake
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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#16 Post by Jake »

PyTom wrote:I would allow commercial use. Commercial use != people profiting off the use. For example, download.com hosting a game on a site with ads probably counts as commercial use. I think you would want to allow commercial use, under a viral/share-alike license, so the game could be hoster on ad-supported hosting sites.
Yeah, I know. And BY-SA does allow commercial use (the 'share alike' part only applies to derivative works), I'm just really talking about "a commercial game using these character designs" when I say "commercial use", because I suspect that's what was intended in the original post.

The distinction being that to create a game using a character design, the game is necessarily a derivative work of the character design, and so would need to be shared. But the kind of 'commercial use' that you're talking about there, or that the CC guys were thinking of when they put together their pick-a-license radio buttons, doesn't necessitate a derivative work at all. So someone could make a mousemat using that image above and sell it without a word to or from me, if they wanted to - but if they wanted to make a game using that image they'd have to license the game under a CC share-alike license (or get particular permission from me, I guess).
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ihentai
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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#17 Post by ihentai »

Suggestion of LGPL-like license based on idea: IMHO, GPL/LGPL like licenses in programming world have the great thing in it - a very strictly controlled virality. For GPL programs exist many business models that allow to profit from GPL programs. And that is one of the power of that types of licenses - currently many GPL programs that we use based on commercial works. Of course, this cannot be directly applied for character/art. But the same kind of balance should be found. I.e , the way for people to make profit from characters/franchise AND contribute to that franchise the same time.

Or we have unbalanced situation of full virality "you cannot use this char for profit", or too much freedom "use any way you like". The situation with MIT-license like chars is not allowing automatically to create a growing pool of content - the is no "virality". But full virality like "all content must be share-alike" is not really helping ether : it leaves much less ways to profit from franchise, much less then in case of GPL programs, as you mention.

So a balance must be found.

This is the kind of problematic thing that I was talking about before, though. The setting and the relationships with other people are as much a part of a 'character' as hair and eye colour and name and 'personality'. If I took Touhou's Sakuya and stuffed her as a checkout girl in a supermarket with none of her usual relationships intact, then she's just not the same character any more....
Yes, that's right. But the same problem (and your described it before) exists in doujinshi world: the Asuka with bondage :). Doujinshi authors solve it by fully ignoring copyright issues but I am personally (as many people) enjoy some of their works ...
Seriously - without sticking to enough of that original canon, you are not using a character, you're using a sprite, and/or a visual design, and/or a name. It's not the same thing at all, and it doesn't carry the same emotional attachment.
A derivative character :) It is not a original character, but it is not an independent character ether.
And, btw, many big franchise in comics world suffer from the exact the same problem. Many comics heroes, especially in movies, suck. So it is actually not a problem of our project, it is a world problem. And we cannot solve all worlds problem by some magic wand :)
And that's basically the fundamental problem I see with this project. You can't establish a canon that people care about without stories, you can't write stories without closing off a lot of the generic usability of the characters.
I try to think not in terms of a problem but in terms of a solution. Let's think what we _want_ from that characters/franchise. I think if we chose the right strategy, the rest will be try/scrap cicle. I try to formulate what I want from that characters in next message.

PS
Probably really great characters will be created gradually , and games using that characters will be re-written to include the char's new heights....

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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#18 Post by Jake »

ihentai wrote: Or we have unbalanced situation of full virality "you cannot use this char for profit", or too much freedom "use any way you like". The situation with MIT-license like chars is not allowing automatically to create a growing pool of content - the is no "virality". But full virality like "all content must be share-alike" is not really helping ether : it leaves much less ways to profit from franchise, much less then in case of GPL programs, as you mention.
The problem here is that you want to create a license which somehow tells the difference between an element of a character design, and a game which uses that character design. So you need to be able to define, in fixed legal terms, what elements of a game are considered 'character design' and which ones aren't. You've handwaved your way past this in this thread before, but that simply isn't an adequate solution - this is a question that needs to be answered if you want to formulate this license. How do you decide whether - for example - a character becoming pregnant is a character design element and not a game-specific element, or vice versa? Under existing laws and licenses such as the CC ones, both of these usages come under the term 'derivative work', which is always dealt with in the same way.

As I said before, I hold that it is practically impossible to come up with a watertight legal definition which actually divides properly in spirit the two types of derivative work, and thus it is a waste of time to try. Because the definition of a character is bound so much to the relationships, situation and setting of that character, it is futile to try and separate the two - especially in a firm black-and-white manner which would hold up to scrutiny in court if necessary. It's all very well saying that "a balance must be found", but I honestly don't believe that there is any space between those two options for such a balance to exist. Feel free to suggest one, of course.

Therefore, it's far more practical in my eye to just abandon the idea, keep the 'viral' share-alike part and forget the ability for random third-parties to be able to make money off of the character. After all, if they want to do so, they can always contact the copyright holder/s and try to arrange a more permissive license with them. There's no reason that the same design/sprites/etc. shouldn't be licensed under more than one different license for more than one different exchange with more than one different party.



(When I said that I prefer MIT-style licenses when I'm giving something away it was purely a personal-preference thing - I dislike GPL-style licenses exactly because they place so many restrictions on the creator of a derivative work. I tend to think of this sort of thing in binary terms, though - either I'm giving something away because I want people to use it, in which case I should make it as free as I can so as many people as possible can use it, or I'm not. Also Richard Stallman called me 'evil' once and I'm not going to forgive him 'cause I know he totally meant it. Also I dislike the continual use of the emotive word 'free' in all the pro-GPL propaganda when describing something with quite obvious restrictions that make it trivially not-free. But it's entirely beside the point - I wasn't suggesting that MIT (or CC-BY) was a good license for the kind of project you describe - just that I personally like it more.)
ihentai wrote:
This is the kind of problematic thing that I was talking about before, though. The setting and the relationships with other people are as much a part of a 'character' as hair and eye colour and name and 'personality'. If I took Touhou's Sakuya and stuffed her as a checkout girl in a supermarket with none of her usual relationships intact, then she's just not the same character any more....
Yes, that's right. But the same problem (and your described it before) exists in doujinshi world: the Asuka with bondage :). Doujinshi authors solve it by fully ignoring copyright issues but I am personally (as many people) enjoy some of their works ...
It's not circumvented by ignoring copyright issues, it's just circumvented by ignoring the totality of the character design. It would be the same problem if someone obtained a valid license to the character design and then ignored half of it. What I mean to suggest here isn't a legal problem, just to note that it's futile to try and define a 'character' in the plot sense of the word and expect people to stick to it. People can and will change it, therefore, you're not sharing a character - you're sharing a visual design, a sprite, and so on. Maybe someone might take the design I posted earlier and put her in a game exactly as she's described there; that's fine. But under any license which allows them to make derivatives at all, they could equally turn her into a bondage slut. If they can make any changes at all, they can make changes I don't like; if I pick a license where they can't make changes I don't like, they likely can't make any changes at all. So the pool of media doesn't grow.

So there's no point me trying to stop them - I've said they can do what they want so long as they can share-alike, and thus I've accepted that I'm not really sharing a coherent character, I'm sharing a set of graphics and a few ideas that people can pick and choose from as they wish.
ihentai wrote:
And that's basically the fundamental problem I see with this project. You can't establish a canon that people care about without stories, you can't write stories without closing off a lot of the generic usability of the characters.
I try to think not in terms of a problem but in terms of a solution. Let's think what we _want_ from that characters/franchise. I think if we chose the right strategy, the rest will be try/scrap cicle. I try to formulate what I want from that characters in next message.
Thinking in terms of a solution is useless if you're trying to form a concrete system, though - you have to think through all the problems with your suggested solution to make sure you've solved or mitigated or accepted all of them. Otherwise your system will break very quickly when somebody decides to do something which is against the spirit but not against the rules. If you don't think through all the potential flaws, it will be hard to choose that 'right strategy'.
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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#19 Post by ihentai »

Jake wrote: .... <skipped>...

Thinking in terms of a solution is useless if you're trying to form a concrete system, though - you have to think through all the problems with your suggested solution to make sure you've solved or mitigated or accepted all of them. Otherwise your system will break very quickly when somebody decides to do something which is against the spirit but not against the rules. If you don't think through all the potential flaws, it will be hard to choose that 'right strategy'.
Ok, I get what your think. And yes, I don't have a good solution to all this problems - if I have one, I've stated it in the beginning of the discussion.
I thought about this a bit more, and here's my conclusion on the most practical way to make something like this work:

* Instead of trying to write a new license, use an existing one - for example, there are lots of pretty good Creative Commons licenses which are written exactly for this kind of thing.
Thats will be very good but probably not really possible for my initial target.
* License an explicit character design and maybe some example sprites, rather than trying to work out which bits are or aren't part of a particular character or trying to define a set of things that are needed for the licensed product. Like this, the same character design can trivially be used in any medium.
Well that's probably should be done anyway - even if we develop something usable in term of guidance for licenses usage.
And give up on:
* Commercial use (unless you want to use a license which doesn't require the user to give back any changes or extensions to the character design).
IMHO the franchise really should allow to creation of commercial derived works of some sort. So probably the doujinshi authors that invent some good plot twists, like pregnancy case you mentioned should bear with that somebody other get it and use in his own work.

IMHO for all this franchise thing to work growing media pile from all (commercial and non-commercial )sources is very important.
* Compelling anyone to keep 'in character' in any sense of the word (because it's impossible to license).
Yes, I think thats impossible to license , too :( But actually this type of thing probably will be self-regulating. If someone create derivative character not really behave like the in the original, it would be different character. And if the target of derivative creator was "use original" he himself probably will change his character to more fit the original description. But , yes, that impossible to license.
* Expecting a thriving doujinshi-style community who loves and adores these characters (because frankly, that kind of thing cannot be manufactured).
Yes, but we can hope :)

Anyway, what I try to achieve for this content is a legalized doujinshi under the same license as original. And not stopping doujinshi authors from profiting on their works.In this topic there is IMHO some good suggestions plus some of mine, I try to summarize:

* I talk here about a VN especially and believe that it can be used for computer game in general. Other media should probably be researched specially.

* The key point : The same license shouldn't (IMHO) be used for all work. So for most content, author can use a well established license. For code - GPL/LGPL/MIT/Proprietary for example.

* The usage of original sprites/resources in derivative, is prohibited. Usage rights, if any, should be stated clear for any image. But using this images as reference for character is fine. I think that there probably exist a established terminology. If I get it right : derivative image's allowed, direct plagiarism disallowed. So something like - you can redraw it in your graphical style, but not digitally copy/manually copy( using glass table for example).

* The text is the most hard part. Suggest that the text seen as literature and licensed under something like CC shared alike with attribution with exeptions. But a text only, can be used for base of derivative work, not a original program in form of code, not based on text pictures of character's, but a scenary/text itself.
The absence of legally permission to use original images/code make the text itself not very usable for direct "pirating" and making profit from it. Yes, somebody can create a game with same text, with his own pics/code , but it is probably not very bad thing.

* The tradition of original authors(for works using in that project) to publish design documents under same combination of licenses should be established: If they like they characters to be used more correctly according to their design, the presence of design documents is helpful.

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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#20 Post by Jake »

ihentai wrote: IMHO the franchise really should allow to creation of commercial derived works of some sort. So probably the doujinshi authors that invent some good plot twists, like pregnancy case you mentioned should bear with that somebody other get it and use in his own work.

IMHO for all this franchise thing to work growing media pile from all (commercial and non-commercial )sources is very important.
Seriously - the more I think about it, the more I think that this just isn't possible.

Under current copyright law, a game which uses a character design is a derivative work of that character design; a new character design which is the same as an old character design with one or two extra features is also a derivative work of that character design. They're both derivative works, so they both fall under the same 'derivative work' clause of any GPL-/share-alike-style license. So either you find some way to define the two as separate (I don't think this can be done) or you accept that everything (game and all) gets shared, or you don't require that anything (design or anything) gets shared.
ihentai wrote: Anyway, what I try to achieve for this content is a legalized doujinshi under the same license as original. And not stopping doujinshi authors from profiting on their works.In this topic there is IMHO some good suggestions plus some of mine, I try to summarize:
Under a CC-BY-SA-type license, it's perfectly possible to profit via sales of physical media, which is what doujinshi authors typically do as I understand it. Selling a comic would be feasible, because you could be handing over a physical thing which has an implicit material worth. It's things like computer games (/VNs) which would be hard to profit from.
ihentai wrote: * The usage of original sprites/resources in derivative, is prohibited. ... If I get it right : derivative image's allowed, direct plagiarism disallowed. So something like - you can redraw it in your graphical style, but not digitally copy/manually copy( using glass table for example).
Firstly, why? Especially where VNs are concerned a consistent set of sprites is far more in demand than character designs. It'd be more useful to provide a coherent body of sprite work for general use than it would a set of character designs, IMO.

Secondly, this would be incredibly hard to do. As I understand it, a re-drawing of a character design image is a derivative work, but so is the same image with an extra bracelet (for example) drawn on. All you need to do in order to make a derivative work is add some creative input, and that could be as little as colouring the shirt a different colour or as much as drawing an entirely new piece of art in a different style which happens to share the same costume. In fact, arguably a game using someone else's sprites is a derivative work of those sprites and therefore no modification to the sprites would be necessary at all for it to be legal.

If you allow derivative works of the graphical assets, then people who want to will quite easily be able to use them more or less as they come. So to my mind there's no point trying to outlaw straight re-use of those assets, on two counts.
ihentai wrote: But a text only, can be used for base of derivative work, not a original program in form of code, not based on text pictures of character's, but a scenary/text itself.
This has the same problem, again, as the sprites and the character designs. You need to be able to find some black-and-white watertight definition which distinguishes between stuff you want to be shared or reusable, and stuff you don't. And I honestly don't think it's possible.


(In the case of the text, it's just the case that a commercial project may well write a derivative design document and then base their game on it, but if they don't distribute the design document (and they don't have to) there's no way for anyone to know what it does and doesn't contain. So the only work that other authors can pick bits of the new derivative character design from is the game itself, therefore to satisfy your intent the game text itself must be shared. Except then it's practically impossible to make a profit from it.)
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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#21 Post by chronoluminaire »

I think if this is going to work, you're going to have to allow people to do almost anything. Specifically, you're going to have to allow:
* People to use the precise same sprites you distribute. In fact, this is one of the best possibilities for the characters. Good writers who don't have a character artist available will be able to create VNs using the sprites directly.
* People to create commercial works. This is something you've specifically said you want.
* People to create and distribute any kind of derivative work. This has to be allowed.
* People to take the entire original VN and make a couple of tweaks to it and then distribute that. As Jake says, it's hard to discriminate between "derivative works" that are using the character, and those that are using the text; so just allow it all.
You might be able to require attribution or credit of some kind in these cases.


Secondarily, I think it would be possible to add requests. These are not legally binding, and nobody's obliged to follow them, but come on - this community has got as far as it has because of goodwill amongst the members. So I think it's reasonable to request the following, while also freely admitting that it's not enforceable and people are free to ignore the requests:
* People try to remain within character.
* People redraw the sprites if they're also adding sprites of their own which are drawn by a different artist (so that you don't have two different character art styles in the same game)
I released 3 VNs, many moons ago: Elven Relations (IntRenAiMo 2007), When I Rule The World (NaNoRenO 2005), and Cloud Fairy (the Cute Light & Fluffy Project, 2009).
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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#22 Post by Jake »

chronoluminaire wrote:I think if this is going to work, you're going to have to allow people to do almost anything. Specifically, you're going to have to allow:
...
* People to take the entire original VN and make a couple of tweaks to it and then distribute that.
And bear in mind that this whole discussion only really applies to the 'default' license used by such a scheme, which is designed to grow the pool of media and designs that everybody is free to use. If people wanted to create commercial products and not share any of their product with others, then they could feasibly still arrange a separate licensing of the designs/media/whatever with the original copyright holders which allows them to use the work without sharing. Releasing something under a share-alike license doesn't totally preclude use in a closed commercial product, it just means that you do have to ask permission first, unlike regular share-alike uses of that work.
chronoluminaire wrote: You might be able to require attribution or credit of some kind in these cases.
Realistically, if you're ever in a position where you can't require attribution or credit, then you've put your work into the public domain. If you haven't, then you have copyright over it, and part of the point of copyright is recognition as to who created the work. ;-)
chronoluminaire wrote: Secondarily, I think it would be possible to add requests. These are not legally binding, and nobody's obliged to follow them, but come on - this community has got as far as it has because of goodwill amongst the members.
Oh, indeed - but again, with no legal standing they're niceties rather than actually part of the system - it's something that shouldn't be considered as solving any of the problems that the requirement presents, only as an etiquette to lay on top of whatever we may or may not come up with.
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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#23 Post by mrsulu »

There is an example of a game-making community making a pool of resources. The AGS community started building "Reality on the Norm" games which all took place in a central town, where that town was interpreted by each author in any way he or she chose.

http://ron.the-underdogs.info/

The upside was a familiar setting for everyone and some reusable art, and a way to develop some game ideas quickly without having to start from scratch. The world got wacky and whimsical very quickly. Absurdity was a great way to deal with so many minds going in so many directions so quickly.

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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#24 Post by ihentai »

mrsulu wrote: ....
The world got wacky and whimsical very quickly. Absurdity was a great way to deal with so many minds going in so many directions so quickly.
Thanks for the link! Absolutely marvelous! :)

The absurdity is this community culture, it is not because there are many of them, it is because all of them crazy retro-computer fans :)

If I am not mistaken they make games in spirit of old CGI/EGA PC (and other retro-junk) quests. If you ever played thinks like "Day of the tentacles" you see "Maniac Mansion" - you get what I mean.

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Re: Idea: Free(as a freedom) franchise.

#25 Post by ihentai »

Free world project :
http://www.greathundred.org/

Can be used for our purposes , IMHO.

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